Suicide in Middle Earth

[Andsigil]

I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").

Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others.

Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").

Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others.

So suicide and self-sacrifice differ only in the mind of the observer? You may think I'm cowardly for not wanting Captain Trips to take me by hopping off the tallest building I can find (not very easy to do in Hobbiton), but I see it as self-sacrifice as my caretakers wouldn't then need to waste their time on me.

Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too.

Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.

Much agreed. The characters are very well done; you spend much time getting to know and like (or hate) them, and the plot seems so mysterious...what's with the Walkin' Dude, etc? And then Stephen King doesn't disappoint - the plot just falls to nothing and you're left wondering why you wasted the effort.

That said, I'm still going to read it again.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Didn't Turin bump himself off ?

[Vaine]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Didn't Turin bump himself off ?

Practically yes, although he did 'ask' Gurthang (His sword) if it would be so kind as to end his life, before he let his body fall on it's edge

[alatar]

Welcome to the Downs, Vaine.

Originally Posted by Vaine

Practically yes, although he did 'ask' Gurthang (His sword) if it would be so kind as to end his life, before he let his body fall on it's edge

Another example of 'suicide' for the greater good and for hope. Turin made a mess of everything he touched and everyone with whom he formed a relationship and so, to him perhaps, exiting the stage would further the cause against Morgoth and cut short the mayhem that the dark vala hoped to continue via the CoH. Níniel/Niënor may have felt the same.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And to be fair, Turin and his sister might well
have been considered to have been
driven clinically (at least temporarily) insane.

[alatar]

Not to make this thread too schizophrenic, but I stumbled upon this:

Originally Posted by Stephen King

For a long time-ten years, at least-I had wanted to write a fantasy epic like The Lord of the Rings, only with an American setting. I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Then, slowly after my wife and kids and I moved to Boulder, Colorado, I saw a 60 Minutes segment on CBW (chemical-biological warfare). I never forgot the gruesome footage of the test mice shuddering, convulsing, and dying, all in twenty seconds or less. That got me remembering a chemical spill in Utah that killed a bunch of sheep (these were canisters on their way to some burial ground; they fell off the truck and ruptured). I remembered a news reporter saying, "If the winds had been blowing the other way, there was Salt Lake City." This incident later served as the basis of a movie called Rage, starring George C. Scott, but before it was released, I was deep into The Stand, finally writing my American fantasy epic, set in a plague-decimated USA. Only instead of a hobbit, my hero was a Texan named Stu Redman, and instead of a Dark Lord, my villain was a ruthless drifter and supernatural madman named Randall Flagg. The land of Mordor ("where the shadows lie, according to Tolkien) was played by Las Vegas.

Guess he missed it by *that* much...

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by alatar

So suicide and self-sacrifice differ only in the mind of the observer? You may think I'm cowardly for not wanting Captain Trips to take me by hopping off the tallest building I can find (not very easy to do in Hobbiton), but I see it as self-sacrifice as my caretakers wouldn't then need to waste their time on me.

Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too.

Very noble intentions.