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#1 | ||||||||||
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: A Broom cupboard in Utumno
Posts: 185
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I agree with KuruHaran on this. In Tolkiens works there is a marked difference between forcibly trying to take ones life and the relinquishing of it voluntarily as part of the Gift of Men. There are some interesting quotes in the Akallabeth which illustrate how Tolkien perceives mortality in his sub-creative world.
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So I would argue that Melkor, being the truest to his purpose amongst the Valar, saw his chance, as he tried with the Quendi in the Ages of the Trees and left Angband to go East and corrupt Men in the infancy of their existence Quote:
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It was indeed evident that Morgoth had planted lies into the hearts of the fathers of the fathers of the fathers of mankind before they even met the Avari and that these lies were the beginning of the Shadow and the fear of death that all mankind had ... Quote:
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So as you see, the original 'Fall of Mankind' was the lie, created by Melkor that there was nothing beyond mortal death and that the Eldar did not die and were therefore in some fashion, privileged and to be envied And Sauron in Numenor echoed this lie as he said to Ar-Pharazon the Golden when, in his pride, he felt old age approach .. Quote:
And down the ages this lie seems to be repeated and expanded and sown deeper into the hearts of men, comparable with our own 'Original Sin' in so far, like the men of Tolkiens mythology, the gift of our existence has been spurned and we reap the consequences thereof. Faramir makes another evocative reference to the passing of the truth and the waning of the Men of the West when he says Quote:
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Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips! |
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#2 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Not sure that this is the exact thread for my thoughts...but here goes anyway.
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An aside: One of the fifty or so 'main' characters, Frannie, makes reference to Tolkien. Her father had a shed in the back yard, and the door to the same was smaller than usual. As a child, and maybe even as a young woman, she always hoped that when she opened the door, instead of finding her father's work room, she would find Bag End, and the tunnels (dry) and oddities that made up any well-to-do hobbit hole. This never happened, but she still liked her father's room just the same. Did I mention that her father smoked a pipe? And that one of her ancestors took the name of Tobias Downs? Anyone else wonder which muse was murmuring in the author's ear? Where was I? Oh, anyway, so in the first part of the book, you, as the reader, realize that a super germ gets out and starts killing every man, woman and child (and dog) that gets near anyone that is infected. It's sometimes bleak reading, as you know that anyone near any character that sneezes or coughs will soon be dead, and that includes the infant in the car, the kids out in the backyard, etc. Mostly the death happens off screen, but you do get to read about some of it, and it's not very uplifting. Also, the persons responsible, instead of trying to stop the pandemic, first want to cover up their involvement, and in doing so, allow the plague to spread to the point where it gets out of hand. They even seed it across the oceans to confuse any researchers - not that any are left after a few weeks to point any fingers. After that, civilization breaks down, the dying take one last swing at the resistant people, and then, well, the real fun begins... So I started thinking about facing such a plague - been here before, as, as a former molecular biologist, you think about plagues and super bugs and biowarfare sometimes. That got to thinking about facing such a death, especially now that I have a little family, and what you would do in such a scenario. Knowing that most probably you weren't resistant - especially when you started with the symptoms - how would you face that day, knowing that death was just around the bend? Is there a way around the despair, or, better put, where would one find hope (assuming no thoughts of afterlife)? And, anyway, that broadened into thinking about despair in general. We all know, even if we never think about, that we are going to die. Big whoop most days. But what if...sniff...cough... you were faced with that 'day' today? Hurin showed great courage when he and his men provided a rearguard so that Turgon could escape. Surely that day Hurin thought he was going to die. But what made him stay, when he could just as easily fled with Turgon, having his men hold the pass until he got away? Maybe if he had gotten away, his and his family's lives would not have been so sad. Regardless, he chose to stay and fight, and yet did not die, but in choosing to stay, was that not a form of suicide? And yet, even making this decision, was he not being filled more with hope (that some good would come from his death) than with despair (that all was lost)? Not that I'm advocating anything, but when you are faced with that kind of a decision, how do you know when to stay and fight, or when to run, and how do you maintain hope and fight back despair? And how can we judge those that give into despair, as, in my example, Hurin chooses death because of hope, though we may never have known it? Hope that this makes sense to someone.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
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I see a difference between suicide and self-sacrifice in Western culture. Suicide is something selfish, considered immoral by the main western religion (Christianity), and is something for which people can be forcibly locked up if they fail (a process known as a "committal").
Self-sacrifice is done for a purpose, with nobler intentions in mind- usually to save the lives of others. Addendum: I read The Stand, as well, and the book never made much sense to me: here are the plights and trials of all of these people in what is supposed to be a great struggle between good and evil, and how is it resolved? Trashcan Man, in a blatant and silly deus ex machina, setting off the nuke. Not only that, but his actions also render the entire plot pointless; no matter what the heroes would have been doing or not doing, he would have set off that explosion anyway. Very disappointing plot.
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
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#4 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Plus I'd be feeding the pigeons too. Quote:
![]() That said, I'm still going to read it again.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
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Didn't Turin bump himself off ?
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#6 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Norway
Posts: 65
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#7 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Welcome to the Downs, Vaine.
Another example of 'suicide' for the greater good and for hope. Turin made a mess of everything he touched and everyone with whom he formed a relationship and so, to him perhaps, exiting the stage would further the cause against Morgoth and cut short the mayhem that the dark vala hoped to continue via the CoH. Níniel/Niënor may have felt the same.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. Last edited by Andsigil; 01-14-2009 at 04:44 AM. |
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