Valar / Greek and Roman gods - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindale · 08-30-2008, 08:11 AM

I just thought about this...

Even if JRRT stuck to the idea of Valar having kids, do you or can you imagine Manwe the Holy siring an indefinite bunch of kids in the grand tradition of Zeus, even if Zeus has many merits of his own? Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that.

And from this maybe comes the really bad ton of fan fic about daughters-of-evil.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 08-30-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindale

Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that.

Actually, I can't. I think that Melkor fits the idea of having offspring of his own less than anyone else (well, maybe except for Ulmo, or maybe Mandos) - he was too concerned with other things, I would say "because of lust for power he forgot everything else". And anyway, Valar overall, the way they are portrayed in the last draft, seem quite detached from this and at least for me really hard to imagine - maybe except for one or two Vánas and Nessas, but that'd be about it. In other words, whether this was Tolkien's intention or not in this draft of the Valar or not, I think he succeeded in making the Valar truly "outworldly" in this aspect.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 08-30-2008, 11:33 AM

Well, Tolkien's notion of the Valar having children -- the Valarindi -- was his original concept for what became the Maiar. I'm going on memory, for the moment, but I seem to recall that at one point, there was Fionwe, the son of Manwe, and at another point, Eonwe and Ilmare were the children of Manwe and Varda. I don't recall any other specific mentions of such child/parent connections in the various drafts and notes Tolkien made, but I do suspect that Tolkien decided to skip this kind of human-like descendancy to avoid the kind of "earthy" similarity to the Greco/Roman pantheon, and to place it more in line with his personal religious views. The Valar and Maiar as we now know them fit well with at least some of the various choirs of angels of Judeo/Christian tradition, and yet maintain a certain feel of classical mythology.

wispeight · 08-30-2008, 03:53 PM

Wait a second. Are we talking about gods reproducing as if they are seperate male and female individuals that we are all familiar with here on Earth?

Well, gods are beyond me, I suppose they can reproduce any manner they see fit.

Morthoron · 08-30-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wispeight

Wait a second. Are we talking about gods reproducing as if they are seperate male and female individuals that we are all familiar with here on Earth?

Well, gods are beyond me, I suppose they can reproduce any manner they see fit.

Certainly, it's evident in Greek Mythology: Hercules, Apollo and Diana, Athena (who sprang fully armored from Zeus' head), and Persephone; in Tolkien: Melian the Maia; and in Christianity: Jesus, son of God (I always felt bad for Joseph in that regard); as well as in Egyptian, Hindu and Norse mythos (and many others).

wispeight · 08-30-2008, 06:14 PM

Yes, I think Jesus would want us to reach our inner-most Heart of Being. This is not an easy trip to complete. Too much material in the way. You simply cannot mix force with substance any ole way, it has to be done just right.

Lindale · 08-30-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Actually, I can't. I think that Melkor fits the idea of having offspring of his own less than anyone else (well, maybe except for Ulmo, or maybe Mandos) - he was too concerned with other things, I would say "because of lust for power he forgot everything else". And anyway, Valar overall, the way they are portrayed in the last draft, seem quite detached from this and at least for me really hard to imagine - maybe except for one or two Vánas and Nessas, but that'd be about it. In other words, whether this was Tolkien's intention or not in this draft of the Valar or not, I think he succeeded in making the Valar truly "outworldly" in this aspect.

Actually, Legate, I got the idea from HoME, just can't remember which: the Balrogs were supposed to be his offspring.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 08-31-2008, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindale

Actually, Legate, I got the idea from HoME, just can't remember which: the Balrogs were supposed to be his offspring.

But again, just in some of the early drafts, right? In any case, it never got to the "officially published" "completed" works.

08-30-2008, 08:11 AM	#1
Lindale Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: midway upon... in a forest dark Posts: 975	I just thought about this... Even if JRRT stuck to the idea of Valar having kids, do you or can you imagine Manwe the Holy siring an indefinite bunch of kids in the grand tradition of Zeus, even if Zeus has many merits of his own? Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that. And from this maybe comes the really bad ton of fan fic about daughters-of-evil. __________________ The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal Legal Madness.

08-30-2008, 11:33 AM	#3
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	Well, Tolkien's notion of the Valar having children -- the Valarindi -- was his original concept for what became the Maiar. I'm going on memory, for the moment, but I seem to recall that at one point, there was Fionwe, the son of Manwe, and at another point, Eonwe and Ilmare were the children of Manwe and Varda. I don't recall any other specific mentions of such child/parent connections in the various drafts and notes Tolkien made, but I do suspect that Tolkien decided to skip this kind of human-like descendancy to avoid the kind of "earthy" similarity to the Greco/Roman pantheon, and to place it more in line with his personal religious views. The Valar and Maiar as we now know them fit well with at least some of the various choirs of angels of Judeo/Christian tradition, and yet maintain a certain feel of classical mythology. __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

08-30-2008, 03:53 PM	#4
wispeight Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: In the caboose pulled by the unseen. Posts: 23	Wait a second. Are we talking about gods reproducing as if they are seperate male and female individuals that we are all familiar with here on Earth? Well, gods are beyond me, I suppose they can reproduce any manner they see fit.

08-30-2008, 06:14 PM	#6
wispeight Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: In the caboose pulled by the unseen. Posts: 23	Yes, I think Jesus would want us to reach our inner-most Heart of Being. This is not an easy trip to complete. Too much material in the way. You simply cannot mix force with substance any ole way, it has to be done just right.