Valar / Greek and Roman gods

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Overall, I think I'd rather party with the Greeks than the Valar.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with you on this one, Morthoron. The Greek gods where what I call modern day college students (with no offense intended for you college students). Unlike the Valar the seven Greek gods inherited the earth from their parents, Cronus and Mother Earth, overthrowing both of them and living off of their wealth as you might say. The Greek gods complained, argued, plotted, fought, and begrudged each other. In fact their was very little harmony or authority at all with them, other than the most powerful of them governs all (even that didn't work sometimes). So in short the Greek gods are a bunch of siblings who where saved from death by their mother only to dishonor her, and their father, living off of their parents blessings, governing through fear, and gave some really cool parties. Hephestus is excluded from all this, I like him!

The Valar on the other hand had a sense of morality, order, knew the difference between right and wrong and generally had good moods. Just look at the difference between Tulkas and Ares, there's almost no similarity in their moods. Another main difference is the Valar's respect of life, they genuinely cared for the peoples of Arda, unlike the Greek gods who used the humans as pawns for amusement or to get pleasure from.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with you on this one, Morthoron.

No need to be afraid, Mr. Redbeard, I don't bite...much.

Come on over later. Thor, Loki and the Aesir are coming to the barbeque, and we're going to drink mead until we vomit (or pass out, whichever comes first). I just hope Odin doesn't do magic tricks with his one eye again (it's very disconcerting to see that cerulean orb floating in a glass of ale).

[wispeight]

[QUOTE=Morthoron;566226]No need to be afraid, Mr. Redbeard, I don't bite...much.

Did you just trope his rhetoric?

I like the level upon which the gods were discussed on this thread. It was interesting.

Since I saw that Loki was included, I want to try and remember an opinion which was once put before me in regard to Loki falling out of favor with the other gods. He was often relied upon to get things done to the benefit of this or that god. While concurrently, being often reviled as a distasteful necessary evil. In turn, Loki did not agree with the self proclaimed perfection that the gods supposedly possessed with Baldr epitomizing it. I will not opine on what Loki or myself personally think about the attaining of perfection. I've read what opinion of perfection he supposedly had, and I have developed my own.

Loki supposedly killed Baldr and I feel that this might be mere assertion and it could quite possibly have been another god, jealous of the esteem Baldr enjoyed from so many deities.

I've read something indicating that Loki might pertain to a position not so distant in height above mind. That part of mind that can closely participate with matter, a more direct connect.

Maybe there is a moral somewhere among my above ramblings. This theme might point to the physical necessity of doing, and dammit! I just ain't perfect about it! and there is the problem, for it is intrinsic within us - whether we are aware of it or not- to always be striving toward the pinnacle of pefection. Deny it all you want as many as who might. OM

[Alfirin]

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

[wispeight]

I think the Valar are just as interesting and perhaps a bit easier to understand than the Greek gods. The number fourteen is an interesting aspect and draws to my mind the image of force and matter among seven grades.

I've put much more time into reading about the Greek gods, and only a small amount in comparison, to reading about Norse gods. It is easier to remember the latter. I'm choosing to refrain from speculating on why that is.

I watch anything that is LotR type of movie. It is very beautiful, and I am finding out some interesting insights into the late author and what he might have devoted a lot of study to.

[Lindale]

I just thought about this...

Even if JRRT stuck to the idea of Valar having kids, do you or can you imagine Manwe the Holy siring an indefinite bunch of kids in the grand tradition of Zeus, even if Zeus has many merits of his own? Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that. And from this maybe comes the really bad ton of fan fic about daughters-of-evil.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Maybe Melkor, I can picture as that.

Actually, I can't. I think that Melkor fits the idea of having offspring of his own less than anyone else (well, maybe except for Ulmo, or maybe Mandos) - he was too concerned with other things, I would say "because of lust for power he forgot everything else". And anyway, Valar overall, the way they are portrayed in the last draft, seem quite detached from this and at least for me really hard to imagine - maybe except for one or two Vánas and Nessas, but that'd be about it. In other words, whether this was Tolkien's intention or not in this draft of the Valar or not, I think he succeeded in making the Valar truly "outworldly" in this aspect.

[wispeight]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

~~~
I'm thinking that you were almost one hundred percent exoteric. Hel (queen of the underworld, or the dead), esoterically refers to the past. Fingernails also refers to something totally different than the image that the word describes. There is a reason, however, for writings to be written in a manner that hides the real meaning, so I will not go on about it.

I'm not certain, but I think Loki and Promethius might be analogous. There were many things contributed by seperate entities to create humanity, and the last one was very difficult to deliver to us without destroying us. Here I stop while saying only a little, and miolnir does not strike sparks from space to form worlds anymore, nevertheless this hammer still works as in our labors and toils and the pain which heals with wisdom, and keeping the latter and releasing the former.

[The Might]

Hmm, I get the point about the difference in feelings and actions. Seems there are less similarities than I previously thought.

[Rumil]

Interesting thread!

While there are some obvious parallels with the Greek (and by extension, Roman) Gods, eg Vulcan-Aule, Neptune-Ulmo, they seem to me to be about the 'area of responsibility' of each deity rather than their characters.

In character the Valar appear more similar to the Angels and Archangels of Christianity (and Milton), more serious-minded, and not running around seducing princesses while disguised as wildlife. And likely less fun than Dionysus at a party!

I noticed the Norse gods were brought up. In a way Tulkas reminded me of Thor (though without the lightning bolts etc), being similarly forthright characters.

Does anyone recognise the Valar in other Pantheons at all?

The Celtic gods seem a bit nebuous and tricky to tie down but Hindu perhaps? I'm afraid I know too little!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by wispeight

Loki supposedly killed Baldr and I feel that this might be mere assertion and it could quite possibly have been another god, jealous of the esteem Baldr enjoyed from so many deities.

According the earliest sources it was Hoðr (Hod) Baldr's brother who killed him by throwing a spear (or shoting an arrow) at Baldr. This spear (arrow) was made of mistletoe, the only object that did not vow not to hurt Baldr. Of course Hoðr was tricked into this by Loki, but still. . .
Anyways I have not seen any indication that any God other than Loki had a desire to kill Baldr.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Actually, in at least some versions of the legends I've heard, Loki was only a sort of "honorary" Aesier. He was by birth, a Joton (one of the bad giant/troll races) who impressed Odin so much with his shapeshifing ability that Odin brough him to Asgard and made him his blood brother. Most of the other gods hated Loki, but they coulnt do anything to him since he had Odin's blood in him now. they also gave him some credit for using his shapeshifting abilites to turn himself into a mare and draw the gant stomasons horse off before the stonemason could make good on his promise to wall all of Asgard in one day, thereby simultaneously saving the Aesier from losing Freya (and by extension access to the golden apples of immortality and youth) and simultaneously providing Odin with Slephnir his hyperfast eight legged steed. As to Baldur both points are tecnically correct. It was Loki who found out Baldur's one weakness (mistletoe) made the arrow out of it and tricked someone into shooting it. but it was tecnically another God who took the shot. But there is no question that Loki has a dark side, I mean look at who his Children were, Hel (queen of the underword), The Midgard Serpent, and Fenrir who ultimately bit off Tyr's hand (shades of Charcaroth and Beren?) Also wasnt he the god supposed to pilot the boat of dead men's fingernails during Ragnarok? thats enough for now.

He was definitly Odin's bloodbrother, but it is hard to tell if he was a giant or a god. . .There is no real consistency in what the sourses say.

Anyways I just want clarify that it was Idun who was the keeper of the Golden Apples.