Gandalf for President?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The CIA vs the Palantir is an impossible analogy.

Oh, I rather doubt that, myself. Both are, really, just sources of intelligence--well, and communication as the Palantíri were originally used, but not at the time of Denethor--which is hardly a misanalogy.

Originally Posted by Mansun

You have jumped about a google of steps further than what I originally meant. The visions Denethor saw in the Palantir were the works of Sauron, hence all of Denethor's thinking was indirectly under the control (but not command) of Sauron. I did not advocate that Denethor spoke with Sauron, and although I was quite vague, I am still suprised you were not able to read between the lines:-

Denethor took his counsel from the Palantir, i.e. Sauron.

In that case I fear you have misapplied the word "counsel", because to take counsel is to take advice from. The Palantír is not a sentient object, so it cannot give advice, which left me with the only interpretation that Sauron was giving advice to Denethor--whether solicited or otherwise, and refuting that was clearly my position.

Now, you say that Denethor did not speak with Sauron... to which I agree, but I take that to further mean that Denethor did not then take his counsel from Sauron. Denethor kept his own counsel, as I have already averred, and Sauron was not offering advice--he was feeding Denethor false intelligence, to use the more modern phrasing. Granted, over the course of the years this broke down Denethor's spirit, and Denethor should have known better than the use the Palantír, which they had stopped using after the fall of Minas Ithil for good reason... but understanding the word "counsel" as I do, it is entirely a misconstruction to say that Denethor took his counsel from the Palantír or, through it, Sauron. Rather, he constructed his counsel on the basis of the false information Sauron fed him through it.