Gandalf for President?

[Nerwen]

It seems to me that there is a bit of semantical confusion going on here.

I believe Mansun is saying that Gandalf would have made a good politician while others are saying that Saruman would have made (indeed, was) a good politician.

You're talking about two different things.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

It seems to me that there is a bit of semantical confusion going on here.

I believe Mansun is saying that Gandalf would have made a good politician while others are saying that Saruman would have made (indeed, was) a good politician.

You're talking about two different things.

I can see why the confusion started out, but I could not imagine anyone adovcating a vote for Saruman on his record, and amongst other excellent candidates. Gandalf, afterall, was the Steward of Middle Earth, and an astonishingly good one, using ambition with a conscience.

Who would you vote for, Nerwen? I would think it a toss of the coin between Gandalf the White, and Elrond. Sauron and Saruman lose out due to ultimately delivering poor results in the LOTR. In pure political terms though, Sauron probably comes up top.

[Groin Redbeard]

Of course I would vote for Gandalf if he was the only candidate running, but I do believe that others would be more suitable to be President. After all to quote Gandalf: "He is a moss gatherer and I am a stone doomed to rolling." I think that the media would have a field day with this statement and demonize poor Gandalf so that Grima Wormtongue wins the election! Damn the media!!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I can see why the confusion started out, but I could not imagine anyone adovcating a vote for Saruman on his record, and amongst other excellent candidates. Gandalf, afterall, was the Steward of Middle Earth, and an astonishingly good one, using ambition with a conscience.

Who would you vote for, Nerwen? I would think it a toss of the coin between Gandalf the White, and Elrond. Sauron and Saruman lose out due to ultimately delivering poor results in the LOTR. In pure political terms though, Sauron probably comes up top.

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Saruman's record beyond this point goes downhill alarmingly. It is wiser to consider his case through his entire life in the history of Middle Earth up until his death.

I could list quite a few achievements that support Gandalf the White:-

- Advising the masterplan that the Ring be sent to Mordor to be destroyed by a
Hobbit;
- Leading Rohan to victory over Isengard at Helm's Deep;
- Casting down the traitor Saruman from the Order of the Istari;
- Preventing the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith;
- Outwitting Sauron by challenging Mordor at the Black Gate, allowing Frodo time
and space to complete his quest;

In short, Gandalf has the best record for policy making and governing in Middle Earth, although Sauron of course ran him close in almost all matters.

Any votes for the skulking Gollum the Great? Lord Smeagol? I rate him as the most original character ever created.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman's record beyond this point goes downhill alarmingly. It is wiser to consider his case through his entire life in the history of Middle Earth up until his death.

Well as far as DEATH goes... there's a whole host of dead people we're not voting for anymore... Abe Lincoln... Winston Churchill... Charles de Gaulle.

I'm taking Saruman in context, when he was "on the ballot", basically.

Originally Posted by Mansun

I could list quite a few achievements that support Gandalf the White:-

- Advising the masterplan that the Ring be sent to Mordor to be destroyed by a
Hobbit;
- Leading Rohan to victory over Isengard at Helm's Deep;
- Casting down the traitor Saruman from the Order of the Istari;
- Preventing the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith;
- Outwitting Sauron by challenging Mordor at the Black Gate, allowing Frodo time
and space to complete his quest;

The thing is though... most of those are not the actions of mandated ruler, but rather the actions of a capable advisor and/or organiser, and while those people are invaluable to the smooth operation of a country, they are not Presidents/Kings/etc.

And as far as casting Saruman from the order goes... they had orders from Head Office. Manwë fired Saruman and Gandalf got his job. Or, if you take it as "fight of the fittest" then it's more a case of Gandalf being stronger--not a better leader.

In short, Gandalf has the best record for policy making and governing in Middle Earth, although Sauron of course ran him close in almost all matters.

Except that, as my point is, Gandalf never actually governed. The only office of authority he ever holds is "the White Wizard" and by this point the order consists of him and a delinquent Radagast...

Now, don't get me wrong... I think Gandalf is, when pressed into it, an excellent leader, but as far his actual examples of leadership go, they are very much limited to advisory capacities or else to ad hoc inspiring.

Gandalf is more of a general than a president.

Or a bureaucrat.

I think he'd probably make an awesome civil servant.

But a President? (Or other comparable office-holder)

No.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Except that, as my point is, Gandalf never actually governed. The only office of authority he ever holds is "the White Wizard" and by this point the order consists of him and a delinquent Radagast...

As the chief in all matters concerned with the Ring, and as Steward of Middle Earth, Gandalf the White ultimately was in charge of governing Middle Earth as a whole in the war against Sauron.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As the chief in all matters concerned with the Ring, and as Steward of Middle Earth, Gandalf the White ultimately was in charge of governing Middle Earth as a whole in the war against Sauron.

Except...

I'm going to have to harp on about the distinction I hinted at in my last post between "General" and "President".

Both are leaders.

But there are some radical distinctions between the two.

A general leads in battle. He* has his superiors, but he commands from an authoritative position. A president leads from an office. His authority is below no one's, but he cannot command in the same unilateral manner--in other words, he must be a politician.

Gandalf, I reiterate, does not strike me as a president. His leadership is very much, when he assumes it, unilateral and focused on a particular goal (a military campaign, even). He does not have a long-term authoritative mandate.

And as for "Steward of Middle-earth"... presented as such this is almost uncanonical, and even though Gandalf tells Denethor that he is a steward too, I think it's very clear that he means it in the sense of a Caretaker, which is his entire point, because there's a huge difference between the role of a caretaker and the role of a "president", which is precisely how Denethor saw his office.

Actually... now that I mention it... Denethor might get my vote. Sorry, Saruman.


*"He" is used only because Gandalf is a "he" and for convenience. It is fully acknowledged that the offices of general or president need not be masculine only.