Gandalf for President?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I can see why the confusion started out, but I could not imagine anyone adovcating a vote for Saruman on his record, and amongst other excellent candidates. Gandalf, afterall, was the Steward of Middle Earth, and an astonishingly good one, using ambition with a conscience.

Who would you vote for, Nerwen? I would think it a toss of the coin between Gandalf the White, and Elrond. Sauron and Saruman lose out due to ultimately delivering poor results in the LOTR. In pure political terms though, Sauron probably comes up top.

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

If all I had was "public knowledge" on which to base a vote, I'd probably be voting Saruman in the Middle-earth elections.

Now, I realise we all know, after the fact what a sleaze-ball he is... but let's pretend we know as much as Gandalf himself did--right before he got locked up.

Saruman:

-was trusted by Manwë to lead the Istari
-was trusted by the Stewards, good Middle-earth's superpower, to govern Orthanc.
-helped build the White Council, and won its leadership.
-Actually led the White Council to victory over Sauron, kicking him out of Mirkwood.

Never mind that he is clearly marked as the most naturally gifted orator in Middle-earth, though by the time we show up in the pages of the Lord of the Rings, he's stopped talking about anything we should listen to.

So, if you're asking who, as an insider who knows what everyone in Middle-earth is like... I'd say Aragorn.

But if you're asking about who Joe Rohirrim on the streets knows... Saruman has a compelling case.

Saruman's record beyond this point goes downhill alarmingly. It is wiser to consider his case through his entire life in the history of Middle Earth up until his death.

I could list quite a few achievements that support Gandalf the White:-

- Advising the masterplan that the Ring be sent to Mordor to be destroyed by a
Hobbit;
- Leading Rohan to victory over Isengard at Helm's Deep;
- Casting down the traitor Saruman from the Order of the Istari;
- Preventing the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith;
- Outwitting Sauron by challenging Mordor at the Black Gate, allowing Frodo time
and space to complete his quest;

In short, Gandalf has the best record for policy making and governing in Middle Earth, although Sauron of course ran him close in almost all matters.

Any votes for the skulking Gollum the Great? Lord Smeagol? I rate him as the most original character ever created.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman's record beyond this point goes downhill alarmingly. It is wiser to consider his case through his entire life in the history of Middle Earth up until his death.

Well as far as DEATH goes... there's a whole host of dead people we're not voting for anymore... Abe Lincoln... Winston Churchill... Charles de Gaulle.

I'm taking Saruman in context, when he was "on the ballot", basically.

Originally Posted by Mansun

I could list quite a few achievements that support Gandalf the White:-

- Advising the masterplan that the Ring be sent to Mordor to be destroyed by a
Hobbit;
- Leading Rohan to victory over Isengard at Helm's Deep;
- Casting down the traitor Saruman from the Order of the Istari;
- Preventing the Witch King from entering Minas Tirith;
- Outwitting Sauron by challenging Mordor at the Black Gate, allowing Frodo time
and space to complete his quest;

The thing is though... most of those are not the actions of mandated ruler, but rather the actions of a capable advisor and/or organiser, and while those people are invaluable to the smooth operation of a country, they are not Presidents/Kings/etc.

And as far as casting Saruman from the order goes... they had orders from Head Office. Manwë fired Saruman and Gandalf got his job. Or, if you take it as "fight of the fittest" then it's more a case of Gandalf being stronger--not a better leader.

In short, Gandalf has the best record for policy making and governing in Middle Earth, although Sauron of course ran him close in almost all matters.

Except that, as my point is, Gandalf never actually governed. The only office of authority he ever holds is "the White Wizard" and by this point the order consists of him and a delinquent Radagast...

Now, don't get me wrong... I think Gandalf is, when pressed into it, an excellent leader, but as far his actual examples of leadership go, they are very much limited to advisory capacities or else to ad hoc inspiring.

Gandalf is more of a general than a president.

Or a bureaucrat.

I think he'd probably make an awesome civil servant.

But a President? (Or other comparable office-holder)

No.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Except that, as my point is, Gandalf never actually governed. The only office of authority he ever holds is "the White Wizard" and by this point the order consists of him and a delinquent Radagast...

As the chief in all matters concerned with the Ring, and as Steward of Middle Earth, Gandalf the White ultimately was in charge of governing Middle Earth as a whole in the war against Sauron.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

As the chief in all matters concerned with the Ring, and as Steward of Middle Earth, Gandalf the White ultimately was in charge of governing Middle Earth as a whole in the war against Sauron.

Except...

I'm going to have to harp on about the distinction I hinted at in my last post between "General" and "President".

Both are leaders.

But there are some radical distinctions between the two.

A general leads in battle. He* has his superiors, but he commands from an authoritative position. A president leads from an office. His authority is below no one's, but he cannot command in the same unilateral manner--in other words, he must be a politician.

Gandalf, I reiterate, does not strike me as a president. His leadership is very much, when he assumes it, unilateral and focused on a particular goal (a military campaign, even). He does not have a long-term authoritative mandate.

And as for "Steward of Middle-earth"... presented as such this is almost uncanonical, and even though Gandalf tells Denethor that he is a steward too, I think it's very clear that he means it in the sense of a Caretaker, which is his entire point, because there's a huge difference between the role of a caretaker and the role of a "president", which is precisely how Denethor saw his office.

Actually... now that I mention it... Denethor might get my vote. Sorry, Saruman.


*"He" is used only because Gandalf is a "he" and for convenience. It is fully acknowledged that the offices of general or president need not be masculine only.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Except...

I'm going to have to harp on about the distinction I hinted at in my last post between "General" and "President".

Both are leaders.

But there are some radical distinctions between the two.

A general leads in battle. He* has his superiors, but he commands from an authoritative position. A president leads from an office. His authority is below no one's, but he cannot command in the same unilateral manner--in other words, he must be a politician.

Gandalf, I reiterate, does not strike me as a president. His leadership is very much, when he assumes it, unilateral and focused on a particular goal (a military campaign, even). He does not have a long-term authoritative mandate.

And as for "Steward of Middle-earth"... presented as such this is almost uncanonical, and even though Gandalf tells Denethor that he is a steward too, I think it's very clear that he means it in the sense of a Caretaker, which is his entire point, because there's a huge difference between the role of a caretaker and the role of a "president", which is precisely how Denethor saw his office.

Actually... now that I mention it... Denethor might get my vote. Sorry, Saruman.


*"He" is used only because Gandalf is a "he" and for convenience. It is fully acknowledged that the offices of general or president need not be masculine only.

Gandalf the White, as Steward of Middle Earth (a slightly flattering but truthful generalisation), may not have been officially installed as a King or ruler, but that does not mean he could not do it to a superior level to others such as Denethor and Theoden, who in many ways could not govern themselves or their countries without much counsel on policy making.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf the White, as Steward of Middle Earth (a slightly flattering but truthful generalisation), may not have been officially installed as a King or ruler, but that does not mean he could not do it to a superior level to others such as Denethor and Theoden, who in many ways could not govern themselves or their countries without much counsel on policy making.

Yes, but that's kind of the point of Gandalf: to counsel, to assist, and to guide. And, for what it's worth, your assertion about Denethor is rather unfair, since he took pretty much no one's counsel, and while this ended in personal despair for him, he was remarkably successful until that point at leading Gondor bravely in defence against a much more powerful enemy.

[Morthoron]

My, so much to reply to!

Originally Posted by Mansun

Saruman was a power deriving freak, not a capable politician. If you used his policies, you are looking at another Hitler situation. Therefore, the thread question asks if Gandalf is the best candidate to take the top job in politics on grounds of ability alone, not by who is obssessed by politics. Gandalf was a far more astitute policy maker and governor of the free people.

You ignored the context of my post, utterly failing to see what I was getting at. Your opening statement in your first post was:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf is the ultimate politician in the LOTR.

I disagreed, claiming Saruman was far more politically savvy than Gandalf, particularly from a Machiavellian point of view. That Gandalf was on the winning side does not denote that he was more accomplished politically. Gandalf was treated with mistrust in the Shire, and he certainly didn't win any points in his interactions with Denethor. Saruman and Gandalf's mission was an agenda set forth by the Valar. Gandalf chose to stick with his mission (which was apolitical on a personal level), while Saruman chose a political route to personal power.

You seem to ignore the facts regarding Saruman and his abilities, labelling him as a 'freak' (which was unnecessary) rather than acknowledging that he was revered and respected as a leader for thousands of years in the 3rd Age. That he was, in the meantime, trying to get the Ring and betray the White Council, outwitting Gandalf, poisoning Theoden, having the Gondorions gladly hand him the keys to Orthanc, deluding the Dunlenders, double-crossing Sauron and taking control of the Shire (which could be chapters right out of Machiavelli's The Prince), were all part of a political process to power (selfish and evil , certainly, but savvy nonetheless).

Your second and third statements in your opening post:

Originally Posted by Mansun

Would you vote for him as a President? Did he have the all round capabilities to govern a nation such as the US?

I answered quite simply and to the point (excuse me for quoting myself):

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Gandalf neither sought personal aggrandizement nor office for himself. He was not interested in taking down roots and he certainly did not seek dominion over others (which is why he forsook the use of the Ring). His role was to make or restore leaders, not become one, and when his task was finished he left for good (something no politician in history, not even the good ones, has done). If chosen, he would not run; if elected, he would not serve. He was a missionary or ambassador of the Valar, not a politician by definition.

Gandalf was not a politician. Gandalf did not seek power. Gandalf would not be a king or president or rajah or prime minister. Again, he was a missionary for the Valar, and public office would be anathema to him as that would be a personal goal and not part of his mission; therefore, he did not have the capabilities necessary to run a government. It would be just as silly to claim, as Durelin humorously intimated, that Tom Bombadil would be a great president; neither Gandalf nor Bombadil were interested in wielding such power, and certainly would decline the offer. Therefore, the premise does not work. You might as well have said Jesus would be a good president -- it would be equally unfounded, given that it was not Jesus's mission to claim earthly power (render unto Caesar and all that).

Originally Posted by Mansun

In my book, anyone who abandons the forces of Good for orcs is weak and is a freak.

Your attempts at character judgement have nothing to do with political ability. Stalin was very politically astute, and I don't believe anyone would put a white cowboy hat on his head. He held off Hitler with a cynical alliance until his own forces were up to speed, and that breathing space certainly saved Russia from defeat when they finally went to war against Germany. Then, just as cynically, Stalin joined "The Good Guys", won the war against Germany, and then proceeded to grab half of Europe for himself. Goodness is relative in politics (as you can see, Stalin was both a bad guy and a good guy, depending on the political situation).

Originally Posted by Mansun

I agree with the above, except the highlighted bit. Using any means necessary in politics leads to extremism and tensions within a state. I prefer perception, not deception. as fundamental in politics.

Again, your statement is relative, and is not necessarily consistent with political fact. For instance, Abraham Lincoln, who many consider the greatest U.S. president, precipitated the most costly war in U.S. history with 620,000 dead soldiers (not to mention uncounted civilian deaths). He is still hated in many southern states to this day. Certainly in hindsight one would say he did the right thing; however, at the time he was villified almost as roundly in the north as he was in the south.

In WWII FDR, Churchill and even the Pope were aware for years that the Jews were being annihilated by the Germans, but nothing was done by the allies because it did not fit into their battle plans. There was neither an outcry, nor protest. Does this then make them accomplices with the Nazis? FDR sanctioned putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps (many were U.S. born citizens); yet surprisingly, no Italian-Americans or German-Americans were treated in the same manner. Do you not find that despicable?

Is extremism from whom you consider "good guys" okay, while it is wrong in those you consider "bad guys"?

Originally Posted by Mansun

As the chief in all matters concerned with the Ring, and as Steward of Middle Earth, Gandalf the White ultimately was in charge of governing Middle Earth as a whole in the war against Sauron.

No, there was never a point where Tolkien referred to Gandalf as "Steward of Middle-earth", and he certainly was not "in charge of governing Middle-earth as a whole" ever. You seem to ignore Aragorn, Theoden, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil, Dain and Brand.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Now, don't get me wrong... I think Gandalf is, when pressed into it, an excellent leader, but as far his actual examples of leadership go, they are very much limited to advisory capacities or else to ad hoc inspiring.

Formendacil understands Gandalf's concept of leadership. It is not to govern or lead in a political sense, it is as a mentor to kings and a missionary from the Valar. As I stated previously, when Gandalf's mission was completed, he left, and no politician in the history of the world quit when he was at the pinnacle of power.

So, no, Gandalf would not be a good president, because he would never be a president.