The curse of Morgoth in CoH.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by skip spence

How about: there is no evil? Or that evil is everything? Maybe evil was invented in the 19th century by Charles Darwin? All these possibilities seem equally valid to me. Personally I don't believe in the existance of evil in any absolute sense. "Evil" is a relative concept invented by men and exist only as a cultural and lingusitic construct.

Well, this explains a lot. No wonder we've been talking past each other. I see that there's no further use in discussing evil with you, since you don't believe it exists. I of course find such a notion to be at least untenable and at worst delusional. I mean that, of course, in the nicest possible way.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Well, this explains a lot. No wonder we've been talking past each other. I see that there's no further use in discussing evil with you, since you don't believe it exists. I of course find such a notion to be at least untenable and at worst delusional. I mean that, of course, in the nicest possible way.

You find my statement that evil doesn't exist to be untenable?? Well, "delusional" is also a relative concept and I'd like to see you prove that evil indeed exists. That is to me an untenable notion but I mean it in the nicest possible way too. I'm certainly not here to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs.

Gobtwiddle by the way... Gobtwiddle! That's a word I've never come across. Care to enlighten us?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by skip spence

You find my statement that evil doesn't exist to be untenable?? Well, "delusional" is also a relative concept and I'd like to see you prove that evil indeed exists. That is to me an untenable notion but I mean it in the nicest possible way too. I'm certainly not here to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs.

I must decline to pick up that gauntlet, for it would mean having first to prove that philosophical relativism is itself untenable (which I hold to be the case), and that would not be fitting to this thread, nor do I care to involve myself in such a debate; I have better and more interesting things to do with my time on the Downs.

Gobtwiddle by the way... Gobtwiddle! That's a word I've never come across. Care to enlighten us?

I made up the word, here on the Downs, as a matter of fact, in response to something posted by someone else that I instantly recognized as nonsense. So for starters, Gobtwiddle = nonsense; however, it's a more graphic rendering since it is related to "Shut yer gob!" - - which is to say, "shut your mouth!" So a "gob" being mouth, or for the sake of my coining, "lips", to "twiddle" one's "gobs" is to pass one's forefinger over one's lips while mildly humming. In the end, it's just a whimsical new way to say "nonsense".

[skip spence]

^So your saying it's just an euphemism for "Shut up!"

Why I oughta...

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I must decline to pick up that gauntlet, for it would mean having first to prove that philosophical relativism is itself untenable (which I hold to be the case)...

Probably a good call that.

[littlemanpoet]

No, not for "shut up", but for "that's nonsense". As in, "you're just twiddling your lips". But yes. It's time for me to be moving on now. It's been fun.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Well, this explains a lot. No wonder we've been talking past each other. I see that there's no further use in discussing evil with you, since you don't believe it exists. I of course find such a notion to be at least untenable and at worst delusional. I mean that, of course, in the nicest possible way.

I'm quoting myself because someone, who apparently has not the courage to identify him- or herself, gave me a negative rep, describing the above as "haughty". Thank you for the honor of so naming what I said. I have arrived at last.

But seriously, why would someone consider the above haughty? I raise the question because it has to do with the concept of evil, which, since this discussion has closed in terms of any other topic, might as well continue as a discussion of our beliefs towards evil (certainly in reference to Tolkien's works).

If I were to take a guess as why the above seemed haughty, it is because I named someone else's belief as both logically untenable and delusional. First, definitions. "Logically untenable" means that a belief cannot be defended by logic. "Delusional" means that a belief is held in spite of clear evidence to the contrary, precisely because the one holding the belief refuses to acknowledge that a thing is what it is; in this case, evil.

So allow me to ask: is the evil depicted in Tolkien a mere fantasy, something that does not actually exist in the world in which we live? Are there no modern day Sarumans who bend and 'filet' truth and reality into rationalizations to justify their own agendas, desires, and motivations? Are there no murderers who are just as willing to steal, kill and destroy as the orcs of LotR (after all, how many times did Tolkien refer to modern-day orcs?)?

I eagerly await anyone's answer as to how evil does not exist; my thanks in advance.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

If I were to take a guess as why the above seemed haughty, it is because I named someone else's belief as both logically untenable and delusional. First, definitions. "Logically untenable" means that a belief cannot be defended by logic. "Delusional" means that a belief is held in spite of clear evidence to the contrary, precisely because the one holding the belief refuses to acknowledge that a thing is what it is; in this case, evil.

I'm sorry but that does not make any sense whatsoever. I don't believe in the existance of evil in any absolute sense. This you deem delusional. Why? Because there's clear evidence to the contrary, you say. The evidence that evil in fact does exist is the existance of evil, and my delusion is refusing to accept it. Is that what you're trying to say?

But I can see where you're coming from. You are obviously a christian who believe in a good god who created the world and everything in it. If you accept this axiom it's also easy to accept that God made certain rules for men to follow, although reading the Bible tends to confuse at least me regarding how to follow them (are we or are we not supposed to kill fex.?). But even if you accept this as a fact (which no serious scientist would) the existance of "evil" is not proved still. The world is not black and white as you probably know, and just because there is a good way to act does not nessesarily make any deviation from it "evil". Is someone who've helped millions of people all his life suddenly evil if he cheats on his wife without regretting it? Is the president of Iran an evil man? Is the president of the US an evil man? The answer you would recieve from these questions would be very different depending on who you ask and where. And the motivations behind a yes or no would never be based on any 'proof', only more or less vague feelings and opinions. If there is a god then he/she/it can probably answer, but no one have been able to prove that either. Maybe you find a certain definition of 'evil' true in your heart, but such 'truth' can only be true within your self. And just because you find something to be true in your heart, does not give you the right to impose that belief upon someone else.

You may believe this to be delusional but the existance of concepts such as 'good' or 'evil' are unprovable within the limits of our perception and therefore I'm (almost) certain they do not exist.

Would have written more and checked my post for clarity but I have to go now. I hope I haven't offended you in any way.