The curse of Morgoth in CoH.
 

I just re-read the Children of Hurin and was struck by the dark tone of the book. The characters, especially the mortal men, just can't do anything right. Whether they have good intentions or not, all their actions lead to further evil.

I thought about Morgoth's curse on Hurin and what it really meant. Hurin thinks Morgoth is lying when he says he can curse his family and affect it from afar. Clearly Hurin was mistaken. So how does this curse work then? This is my theory:

In 'Morgoth's Ring' we're told that the whole ME is to Morgoth what the One ring is to Sauron. In his quest to be the undisputed Lord of ME, Morgoth has dispersed much of his vast powers into the very 'hroa' of the earth, which had the downside of making his own physical persona more earthbound and less potent. On the upside though, the earth itself became charged with his evil and able to exert his will: to urge on the orcs far away from Angband and to cause his enemies to mistrust and fight each other. In fact, if we believe what is written in MR, Melkor isn't just a renegade Vala, doing what is evil; he is evil itself, and the rote cause of everything that is wrong with the world . Without his discord during the creation of Arda there wouldn't be any evil deeds whatsoever, and the whole of ME would have remained a blissful paradise, akin to the garden of Eden.

I imagine the curse of Morgoth to be like an everpresent voice, whispering dark suggestions into Turin's unconsiousness, much like the rings of power does to its carriers. And although his intentions are good and noble, he just isn't strong enough to resist the will of Morgoth which is concentrated on him. And the burden of Morgoth's evil will does not rest on Turin alone. It seems like all the characters in the book are affected badly, as Morgoth's power over Beleriand is great at this time. Just think of the woman Turin rescued from his outlaw buddies and her bloodlust, demanding a head for a bride's gift.

I don't think Morgoth could plan Turin's fate in detail; after all he wouldn't have planned for Turin to slay Glaurung. Also Morgoth doesn't know where Turin is or what he does when he has no direct information from his servants, so he can't send any direct unconscious messages to him. But what he can do is to focus his evil will on Hurin and his kin, making the little red devil on their shoulders so much stronger and causing them to constantly make the wrong decisions.

Any other ideas?

Do you have quotes? I don't recall this from MR (then again, it's been about a year since I read it). The reason, as far as I could gather, for Morgoth's decrease in power was due to his putting his power into his servants, not the earth itself. His influence seems to go with the creatures that do his bidding. Weather or not this is more prominent in some, like Sauron, or less in others, like orcs, I don't know.
We come again to the 'seeds' of Morgoth, as mentioned most predominately in the Fall of Numenor. We know he was the spreader of lies and the account of his 'rise to power' before the slaying of the trees is a good example, I think, of how he worked.
As for Turin, we have an interesting problem. I do often wonder about his 'bad luck' as it were and exactly how involved Morgoth was in it. This raises further questions about what exactly the power of the Valar even is. Can they influence creatures that are not their servants. Certainly the moving and to an extent, controlling of things tends to be something they do, although I think Morgoth is the only one to do it extensively with living things. (Depending on how you view Manwe's Eagles). It always seemed to me that, in order for a Valar to have an effective influence on someone there had to be some willingness on the part of the one being influenced. Given Turin's hatred (albeit, of Morgoth), it may have been the source of Melkor's hand in him, if indeed this is true.
Then again, it could just be that Turin was dreadfully unlucky. :cool:

It's found in Myths Transformed, HoME X:
Edit: x-posted with WCH

"To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth- hance all things that were born on Earth and lived on or by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'...Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the flesh or physical metter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it...Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.....The whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring."

EDIT: X-posted with Raynor

Tom Shippey, in "Author of the Century", pointed out that Tolkien was very careful to keep evil in Middle Earth in a balance of seeming opposites. The two poles are called "Manichaean" and "Boethian". In Manichaeen, evil is considered equal to good, whereas in Boethian, Good is considered to be the ALL, and evil is merely its negative. I think Shippey was right that Tolkien was careful to keep these two poles in balance.

So to say that Melkor was evil itself, would be too Manichaean. Besides, I don't think striking a balance between these two really messes up your thinking here.

^^I can't be bothered to look up any direct quotes right now, maybe later.

In any case, the title "Morgoth's Ring" is derived from the idea that Morgoth has dispersed his powers into the very fabric of earth in similar fashion to how Sauron put forth his much more limited powers into the One ring. This means that every being that draws its physical being or 'hroa' from the fabric of the earth, comes with a piece of Melkorism in it, which is a capacity and often a tendency towards evil (you might also call it a free will). Read the debate of the Valar in MR concerning the unnatural death of Miriel, mother of Feanor, for more info.

Melkor can't control any of the Children of Illuvatar directly, as the 'fea' (sp?) of the Children is indomitable by nature. He can influence and make them fear him however and does it at all times too. Some can resist his bidding better than others but all are affected. Like I said, in the metaphysics of Arda, Melkor is evil, and when ever someone does what is evil and unnatural, he or she obeys the will of Morgoth. And this goes on even after his defeat and banishment. Just like Sauron can't be destroyed completely unless the One ring is destroyed, the marring of Morgoth can't be wholly undone unless Arda itself is destroyed.

I disagree that Melkor himself introduced evil as a moral category: I would say he was merely its most potent agent. The choice to do good or evil was there, given to him and all the others by their Creator; I would say it is a prerequisite of free will, which all the Valar/Eruhini have. The potential for good and evil actions/thoughts would have existed without Melkor; we could speculate if it would have been better worse without Melkor, but that's fallaciously based on a hypothesis contrary to "reality", so I don't think it could serve us much.
I disagree; one counter-example is Ungoliant:
In the Atrabeth, it is presumed by Finrod that Eru himself will enter and heal Ea - without destroying it.

One reason the Valar refrained from making war on Melkor was the fear that in so doing, all of Middle-earth or indeed Arda would be undone. We see what did in fact happen to Beleriand.

Yes, I am aware of that passage from MT; however, since skip's statement was not qualified, I felt compelled to make my argument.

The Ainur existed before the creation, but whether they have a free will to do good or evil is not certain, although I belive thay do. It is possible though that Eru created Melkor to do exactly what he did, so his children could rise above it. After all, good deeds aren't possible without a choice to do wrong. Obviously there are a lot of parallells to christian mythology in Tolkiens works. Now, the use of the word "evil" can be debated, but I certainly believe that Morgoth was the rote cause of "evil" or whatever you want to call it, and that Arda was marred by 'Melkorism' from the very beginning.

When I say that doing evil is doing Morgoth's bidding I'm not talking about obeying a direct order. Feanor for example wouldn't dream of obeying Morgoth directly, but certainly did so indirectly, inflamed by his lies and subtle influence.
So when Ungoliant disowns her master, she disowns Morgoth as an incarnate being, but not the primeval discord he put on Arda.

Eru is the exception as he is omnipotent. He is free to end or heal the world at any time. Besides, Finrod is a character, and although he is wise, he is merely speculating.

Are you implying that Eru created the valar without free will? I would say this goes contrary to his work and I know of no future point where they are given such free will. Or do you imply there can be free will without the ability to choose between good and evil? I don't think I follow.
I believe we are talking again about two different things: choosing rather freely between good and evil (and Feanor did his share of bad choices) and being coerced towards evil, which is what Melkor's marring was in essence about. To return to my previous example, Ungoliant was perfectly well outside Melkor's will when she nearly finished him off when he refused to honor their understanding.
Then again, I think we should ask which is the proper perspective: that of Eru, of hope, of faith, or that of the marring. All throughout the works, there are numerous and consistent references to the level of involvement of Eru, to the futility of evil, even in temporal times and to how He guarantees the success of good.

I've a feeling you're arguing mostly for the sake of the argument, as you've cut out the parts I wrote that can answer your questions. I didn't suggest that the Valar lack free will, although it is a possibility, depending on how you define "free will". Besides, the Valar would remain untouched by the marring as they are all spirit and without a 'hroa' drawn from ME.

In Arda Unmarred the Children were meant to be pure and to do only what is good and natural for them, by the resoning in MR. This you may or may not call lack of free will, depending on how you definie it. If you mean the ability to make a decision, for example of whether to have fish or steak for dinner, then they certainly were meant to have a free will even in Arda Unmarred. But if you mean the ability to do right or wrong, than they weren't meant to have a free will, as they could do only what is good according to their nature.

From Raynor
"I believe we are talking again about two different things: choosing rather freely between good and evil (and Feanor did his share of bad choices) and being coerced towards evil, which is what Melkor's marring was in essence about. To return to my previous example, Ungoliant was perfectly well outside Melkor's will when she nearly finished him off when he refused to honor their understanding."

The choice between good and evil is a direct result of Melkors marring IMO. Feanor was able to choose only as a result of the marring. In Arda Unmarred Feanor would never have acted as he did, as the thought to do so never would have occured to him. As for Ungoliant, I already explained how she could disobey him in person and at the same time do his bidding, just like Feanor did. Besides, Ungoliant is an intentional enigma, much like Tom Bombadill.

But let's get back on subject: How do you think the curse of Morgoth did work?

I am sorry if you feel that way about my post, it was not my intention. Concerning your statement that Morgoth was the rote cause of "evil", my understanding is best expressed in this (bolded) passage, from a version of Ainulindale in BOLT 1:
Even in the published Silmarillion, Eru makes a similar statement about Melkor being but an instrument in his design.

I don't know how to reconcile these two statements of yours. If the ability per se to choose between good and evil appears only because of Melkor's marring, and if the valar are not affected by the marring, then how could they have this ability to choose?
Hm, where is that said?
In my opinion, the foremost sign of the existence of a fea would be the very ability to discern and choose between good and evil, and, again, I know of no reference about the Eruhini not having this ability by nature, for better or for worse. I don't see how Melkor could change in such a fundamental way the very essence of these beings - Ainulindale, at least, makes it clear that "none of the Ainur had part in their making". Not only did he modify them, he added to them this, what I believe, greatest manifestation of the spirit, the moral choice.

Furthermore, don't you agree that even small choices can carry a moral aspect, one choice being morally superior to another, no matter the triviality of the issue - like say, sleeping instead of helping, in general choosing comfort over responsibility?

I might also add that another sign of the Eruhini being conceived by Eru alone is that the elves were created with a body to endure until the end of time, but this wasn't made to take into calculation the marring of Melkor.

I believe the closest we can come to reconciling these positions is that Melkor was a great source of making conflicts, thus creating a much greater necessity (not the ability per se) to choose.
But this is the essence of the problem; even if he may not have had to act (or react), he still retained the ability to do so, regardless of the existence of Melkor and his marring. Moreover, the lack of marring does not guarantee that certain thoughts would not come to someone, or that that everybody would have the strength to resist temptations, however trivial they may be.
Hm, I know of Tom being said to be an intended enigma, in the Letters, but not of Ungoliant; there are "credible" sources of information regarding her, unless we consider all maiar, and by extension all spirits, an enigma.
Seeing that Isildur to put under a "spell" an entire people, who remained so long after his death, I would say that the "mistery of names" allows, in certain conditions of "legitimacy", to do such things. However, with Melkor being evil and having evil reasons, I would say it was mostly his power at work at a "causal" level, if I am allowed to say so. I also allow for the possibility that the curse was just a piece of the puzzle, allowed to take effect to test those were greatly endowed - "unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required".

True, Melkor was created by Eru. But was Melkor always destined to rebel against Eru like he did? Because if he was, he did not have a free will and was only doing what Eru created him to do. I say he acted independently of Eru however, as I don't think it fits the mythology to have Eru himself as the prime cause of "evil" as your resoning would suggest, even if the evil in the end will make the world a more beautiful place.

This is a quote from Morgoth's Ring; Ulmo is speaking regarding the death of Miriel:

"And death is for the Eldar an evil, that is a thing unnatural in Arda Unmarred, which must proceed therefore from the marring. For if the death of Miriel was otherwise, and came from beyond Arda (as a new thing, having no cause in the past) it would not bring grief or doubt. For Eru is the Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purpuses, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them."

So death, grief and sorrow would not exist in the perfect vision that is Arda Unmarred. These things come from the marring and Morgoth, and without him none of it would occur. The Valar were also greatly surprised to find that sorrow and death could be brought into the hallowed Valinor. Why were they surprised? If the Eldar could do wrong, then the Valar would surely not have been surprised to find that they eventually faultered, even in the Blessed Realm. Yet they were. This leads me to the conclusion that the Eldar in Arda Unmarred (had it been) weren't meant to be able to do wrong. Well, maybe they still would be able to do wrong, but they would never have had the will for it.


The marring concerns the created world. The Ainur existed before the creation and whether they have the ability to make moral choices is an different question than what effect the marring had on the Children. I certainly think that the Ainur had a free will to act independently of Eru.

We're actually having a discussion about fictional theology here (christ, don't we have anything better to do?). But what we are talking about is basically the "fall of man", straight from christianity. Adam and Eve at first lived blissfully in Eden, in complete obedience to God. This is parallelled with life as it would have been in Arda Unmarred or life in Valinor without Morgoth. Then Eve is tempted or decieved by the snake, eats from the forbidden tree and gains knowledge of good and evil. The part of the snake is in Arda played by Morgoth. You can certainly criticise the logic in Genesis, and you can also criticise the logic in Tolkien's religious ideas. This, however, is the basic idea: What Morgoth brought into creation is a lower path to choose, apart from the high road ordained by God. And without a possible low road to take, good deeds would be without merit.

I agree that Feanor always had the abilily to make choices. I have never said anything different. I don't agree that the thoughts of pride and rebellion that arose in Feanor could have done so without the marring. No, they were a direct result of the marring and of Morgoths discord in the great music.

Then again, even we are capable of predicting a certain behavior, given certain characteristics. And Eru knew Melkor better than anyone could; even if Melkor retained free will all throughout, Eru could still predict quite easily what he would do, at least in certain circumstances (as we could too, if we had that knowledge, I would venture to say) - and I do not presume in this case prescience, simply a very good use of psychology.
I disagree, since this mythology sees Eru as the source of everything there is or could be; and I would add that this is "exonerated" by his omnipotence - if I may quote:
So it's not even a zero-sum "game", it's plus-sum.
I disagree with your reasoning. First, this death is of an Elf - death definitely happens for all Men, and even Elves could still die by whatever material means (killed, by accident or not as they are not invulnerable). Moreover, this particular death raised concern because it was willed, to a certain extent.
Then again, the Eruhini were a mistery to the valar, I doubt they would presume they could really understand them.

Moreover, at least for Men, I would expect a certain level of "entropy"; that is, even if they would have good intentions, their mind is failable, and left to their own devices they would build societies, structures and rules that would come to, gradually, degrade conditions for at least some of them. Thus, grief and despair are not out of the question, and a great deal of them (or at least wrongly perceiving, since, again, their minds are failable) could lead to a loss of hope in Eru, which, by and large, is a fundamental sin.
Well, for me, it beats other hobbies, such as tweaking Xubuntu or learning Python; ceteris paribus, I bet we will be at this for years to come :D.
True, but, as argued in a previous post, there can be other paths, in normal circumstances, still below the "moral" optimum, which do imply or require moral choice, no matter how mundane they are. Nobody will ever come so low as Melkor, nor will one test others as he did; but tests and testers always exist, even if only because of diversity.
Then again, even in a Arda Unmarred it is possible for an accumulation of circumstances that would stress one's limits, understanding or faith, too much; simply statistically speaking. Accidents are still possible, and the capability of Men, esspecially, to deal with them is limited; they are the frailest of all Eru's Children.

So you're saying that when Eru created Melkor he already knew he was going to rebell and torment everything that lives in Arda? Like I said, I don't think this is what Tolkien meant to convey. Wasn't Melkor supposed to be like a brother to Manwe in the original plan? When Melkor rebelled, Eru became angry and had to react, making some adjustments to the original plan. In his infinite wisdom he made sure that Melkor's marring in the end would lead to an even more beautilful world. If he knew what Melkor was going he knew he created a monster.

"...For Eru is the Lord of All, and moveth all the devices of his creatures, even the malice of the Marrer, in his final purpuses, but he doth not of his prime motion impose grief upon them.."

So Eru does not impose grief upon his childern of his prime notion, but yet he creates an prime force of evil and makes him the mightiest being in all of existence? Does that make any sense to you?

The problem here is one that christians have wrestled with for ages: if God is allmighty and good, how come he allows good people to suffer horribly. To find a satisfactory answer to this question one must jump to a conclusion or take a leap of faith if you wish. I don't find Tolkiens answer (as can be deducted from his ME his writings) very satisfactory, although it's certainly to be prefered to the stories in the bible. As I'm not a religious man I stick to what can see and comprehend. And from my point of view, it doesn't really make sense to presume that there's an allmighty God, that he is Good. This axiom will make for some unsolvable questions such as this one.

(The missus is nagging me to use the computer, got to go!)

I am in a hurry too, but I hope we will have time to enjoy this discussion properly..
Most likely, yes; the most relevant passage that comes to my mind is:
As for the question of evil:
As for the the balance...

Allright, but you'll have to wait just a bit longer. Think I will be able to write a reply later this afternoon. :)

Right, let me see if I can remember what we were arguing about.

I believe what we're really discussing is whether Morgoth is the prime cause of evil in the world, or if Eru, since he in fact is the utmost cause of everything in the created world, also is the prime cause of evil.

You claim that the latter is true and I can't disagree. In this mythology Eru Illuvatar is the source of everything; he created Melkor and must therefore be the rote cause of everything Melkor conceives of also.

Yet Melkor it was that marred Arda with his discord. To speculate about the how much pre-knowledge Eru could've had about this is taking the analysis to absurd levels. Melkor wasn't born evil; he "fell" from his preordained high path and rebelled against Eru. You come with many argument that the choice to do good or bad was always there, regardless of Melkors marring. And this is a resonable conclusion if we weren't talking about a fictual mythology but rather an underlying real world that the stories referes to. But it isn't a real world. It is a fictional mythology. It is my opinion that within this mythology as it is written Melkor introduced evil as a moral cathegory. Notice that during the elder days, nothing bad even happens without Melkor behind it. The fall of men, the rebellion of the noldor, the slaying of the trees, the destruction of the lamps; it's all Morgoth.

We have also read about the marring. Melkor has dispersed himself into the very fabric of earth, making everybody who draws a physical body from matter of Arda fallable and tainted. When Miriel died she wasn't the first elf to want to die in Aman, she was the first elf to die in Aman period. Even though elves' bodies theoretically could be destroyed which would "kill" them, this wasn't suppose to happen in Arda Unmarred or the blessed Aman. When it did anyway the Valar were alarmed and took it as proof that Morgoth's marring could be brought even to Aman. Without the marring of Morgoth Miriel wouldn't have died, the Valar agreed on, as life in Aman (without Melkor) was supposed to be blessed, without sorrow or grief.

IMO the evil of Morgoth is twofold. Firstly, Morgoth the person is an incarnate Dark Lord, doing many evil deeds conciously. Secondly, Morgoth is also evil itself, represeted by the marring of creation. This marring of creation affects all creatures on Middle Earth, and is, among other things, a capacity or rather a tendency towards evil in them. The marring is working independently of Morgoth, and when Morgoth the person was ousted from Arda, Sauron inherited the marring. Yet I believe the incarnate Melkor (before his ousting) could concentate his evil will on certain objects, like Hurin and his children. You speculate that the culmination of certain events might have caused rational being to do evil even without the marring of Melkor. And like I said, had it been a real world you'd would probably be right. But in the mythology as it is written Melkor represents evil and without him there would not have been any; he is after all the original Dark Lord or Satan if you wish.

Hm, I'm rambling on and I don't know if that made any sense. Well, here you have it anyway.;)

In my opinion, I have presented evidence that this is so; then again, we may have to agree to disagree :).
Though we was not born evil, I retain my interpretation that Eru pretty much put him on a set course, given the powers he had given him. As Later Quenta Silmarillion (to which we made several indirect references) states, the greatest are the most potent for evil. And correlated with MT, ("every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations"), I would say it is quite reasonable to expect Melkor to go this way.
Eru made His Children as rational beings - and free, as the valar noter in the Ainulindale.Thus, from the very start, they have the (general) ability to choose. Why would they lack the ability to choose between good and evil? Why would Eru limit their ability to choose, in regards to what is, ultimately the most important issue, that of morality, since it is, by and large, the only aspect that can connect the Eruhini back to their Creator? And, moreover, why would He allow his foremost "enemy" to crown them with this, arguably, greatest of all gifts? I particularly have problem with this last aspect, since:

- if Melkor introduced the moral category of evil, he must have also introduced that of good (them being complementary facets);
- it also means: either that he amended even the creation of the Ainur by giving them the ability to choose between good and evil (but you already disagreed with this) or that the Ainur had this ability but the Eruhini didn't - and none of this seems to me to be in accordance with Tolkien's work;
- most importantly of all, "none of the Ainur had part in their [the Eruhini's] making" (Ainulindale).

Moreover, Tolkien didn't want his Middle Earth to be alien to our world, quite the opposite, as he stated in his letters or BBC interview.
Given that he dispensed a great deal of power to promote evil, I would say that this is a rather natural outcome, that most, or all, evil events are connected to him, by receiving his "world-wide" support.
In my opinion, if this was supposed to be so, then the elves would have had invulnerable bodies. However, not even the Valar, not even Melkor, enjoy such a trait. Therefore, it is reasonably to presume that death is a possibility, left as such by the Creator. Moreover, the Valar do not understand the complete purpose of Creation, the Eruhini the least of all. (Did sorrow lacked completely in Aman, I wonder? What about Elwe and Olwe, brothers being separated? Or kindreds separated? Or the Noldor missing Middle Earth? Or what about the Elves in Aman that, most likely, had members of their clan or family being taken away by Melkor, while they were all still in Middle Earth? Didn't this sorrows already made their way in Aman (not all of them related to Melkor, since separation of kin can appear in any circumstances)? And if the Valar didn't see this, doesn't this say how little they understood them or their purpose?)

Allow me to quote myself, since I have offered the only reasonable answer to your debate, which would have been unnecessary had you paid attention. ;)

So to say that Melkor was evil itself, would be too Manichaean. To say that evil originated with Eru would be taking the Boethian argument too far. Both points of view are going to be able to find material in Tolkien to support your view because he put both in there. He kept them in balance. We would do well to do the same in our understanding of his works.

Well, let me retract the statement that Melkor introduced the moral category of evil. This wording I took from you I believe because I thought it had a nice ring to it. In fact, I don't think Melkor altered the Children of Eru so they could recognize what is good from what is bad, and that they weren't meant to be able to do so originally. I think Eru (according to JRRT) created all rational creatures with this ability (which you may call free will) or, in the case of Dwarves, granted it to them.

But all the rational beings under Eru were created with this free will to choose between the good and the bad, so that they would do good IMO. Melkor, the mightiest under Eru, failed this hope. We can speculate whether Eru already knew Melkor was going to rebel (which indirectly would be an argument against free will) or if he didn't. I suggest we drop this point as you can find plenty of support for both options in the texts.

Melkor didn't create evil per se, that I can go along with. But he is still the mythologiocal equivilance of evil. What he did do was to corrupt the creation with his discord, so that the creatures on earth would be swayed towards doing was is bad, something that would've been against their nature without the marring.

This is obvious already from the introductory chapters of LOtR. But Tolkien didn't write stories based on real historical events. There hasn't been any immortal elves, fire-breathing dragons, or demiurgic godlike Valar who molded the earth. When you speculate that evil would have arisen even without Morgoth it's beside the point. When we read about Roman history we can speculate about what really happened. Here, all we have is the text. What is omitted from it doesn't exist, now or in the past. In this mythology Morgoth is the represention of "evil", and like I said, everything bad that happens can be attributed to him, either directly as a person or indirectly as a source of moral corruption. The question of evil without Melkor is moot.

Oh, I browsed Morgoth's Ring and immideately found a quote to support my view (though I do not doubt you can do the same):

This is from 'the orgin of orcs' writings:

"Orcs can rebell agaist him [Sauron (my addition)] without losing their own irremediable alligiance to evil (Morgoth)."

So there you have it in JRRTs own words: Morgoth is evil. :cool:

Sorry, but it's all Morgoth. There would've been no need for the sundering without the malice of Morgoth as he was the reason the Valar withdrew to Valinor, and also the main reason behind why some of the elves chose not to heed the Valar's calling and go to Aman. And like I said, maybe separation of kin could happen without Melkor, but that's a moot question.

You didn't really expect us to go along with that, did you? :p

And if I ignored you, it was because I didn't really understand this Shippey fella's ideas and what significance they have to our debate. And I'm afraid I don't now either. Perhaps I'm not clever enough. :confused:

Did Tolkien ever use these terms?

Though I would gladly debate over whether pure psychological knowledge is at odds with free will, I guess we will have to bag this.
I believe we are in complete agreement over this; I also previously called him the most potent agent of evil.
Hm, those are some very interesting points for me to ponder over these few days, until I have the pleasure to return to our discussion ;).

:D
No doubt he was familiar with them, whether he made reference to them himself. The names for the two points of view aren't important. The content is. Simply put: View # 1 is a creator originated all good things, and that being good, cannot have created evil; yet evil exists. The answer to how it can exist, is that evil is the negative of good. View #2 is that good and evil are equal and in an eternal struggle for dominance. Shippey is saying that Tolkien held these two views in tension, in balance, in his descriptions of evil in LotR (and probably elsewhere). The Ringwraiths, for example, are described as actual beings with real (though unseen) flesh, but they exist on a negative, "wraithed" plane, as it were. So both views #1 & #2 are implicit. Hope that helps.

^I'm not convinced Tolkien had these two concepts in mind and tried to balance them. In Tolkien's Eä Eru is allmighty and created everything in it, good or bad, as Raynor pointed out. I guess what we were debating was the orgin of evil. Did Eru create Melkor with knowledge that he would rebel and torment the earth, to test the children and give them the choice to freely choose their path in life? Or did evil arise independently in the mind of Melkor to the dismay of Eru?

And as for the ringwraiths, I don't believe these concepts are applicable on them. Tolkien separates between the spirit world (or a similar term), which concerns the 'fea' (cf. soul) and the physical world which concerns the 'hroa' or the body. The wraiths operate mainly in the spirit world and that's where their powers are greatest. The fear they can put into the mind of others is therefore a more important weapon for them than for example swords. When Frodo puts on the One ring he also enters the spirit world and that's why he can see them clearly. But the spirit world is not inherently evil; far from it. The Valar (with the exeption of Morgoth) exists wholly in the spirit world and their physical bodies are more like clothes to them than an actual part of their being.

I look forward to it.:)

I just recently read a comment by the late Icelandic scholar Magnus Magnusson on Njal's Saga"

As Tolkien points out through the words of Elrond, nothing was evil in the beginning.

These questions are unanswerable from the texts. Tolkien's own beliefs no doubt informed his writing, however, and from these one may discern that nothing came into being as a "surprise" to Eru. Foreknowledge is not, however, the same thing as predetermination. Be that as it may, I still think you're wasting your time.

Of course they're applicable. There are only so many modes that Evil can take:

• evil is the negative of good
• good is the negative of evil (perhaps impossible)
• evil & good co-exist from the beginning

One or more of these modes necessarily inform any story ever written about good and evil; it simply cannot be otherwise. Therefore, every event in a story that involves evil is necessarily going to describe the evil in these terms, perhaps with great nuance such as is found in LotR: the word wraith is related to writhe, wreath, wrath, even write; these words all are derived from an ancient Germanic proto-word meaning "bent-ness". Evil as "bent" fits the description of "evil as the negative of good" while simultaneously keeping the idea of evil squarely in the real world. Anything bent must necessarily have a material form. Thus the very word Tolkien uses to describe the Ringwraiths combines both views of evil at once. It forms what I call a mythic unity.

Yet the Lord of the Nazgul is also described, at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, thusly. He throws back his hood: 'he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set'. Merry's blade cleaves "undead flesh". So there is flesh, but in the negative realm that Frodo discovers on Weathertop. This shows the negative, but very corporal, both functioning at the same time, in the Ringwraiths. The Nazgul Lord's blade bites deep into Frodo's shoulder. His mace wrecks Eowyn's shield and breaks her arm. That's not mere fear. So there's physical presence as well as negative.

Gobtwiddle! ;) The way Tolkien describes Valinor, it seems like a very physical place, and upon entering Arda the Valar take on physical forms after their nature. Nothing immaterial here!

Although I wouldn't call it a waste of time I agree that you can gain any sure knowledge of these questions from the text. I also suggested we'd drop this a few posts up. But then again, every theory in theology or philosofy are unprovable by nature and despite of this many people much smarter than us spend a lot of time on the subject.

How about: there is no evil? Or that evil is everything? Maybe evil was invented in the 19th century by Charles Darwin? All these possibilities seem equally valid to me. Personally I don't believe in the existance of evil in any absolute sense. "Evil" is a relative concept invented by men and exist only as a cultural and lingusitic construct.

I never suggested that the wraiths had powers only in the spirit world and that they did not have physical bodies. It is clear that they can wield swords, ride horses and wear clothes.

To me it seems that the rings of power can take the wearer into the spirit world, altering/heightening their perception and let them see things that are hidden from others. Those of strong will can also manipulate and seek to dominate the minds (soul/'fea') of others with the rings. Invisibility is just a side effect. An important point for Tolkien is how moral choices are much more important than physical strenght. This is also why the powers of the nazgul are mostly mental, and the ability to resist them is measured in moral character and strenght of will, not by physical potency.

And I'm afraid I find your theory of the nazguls existing in a "negative realm" at the same time as in the actual physical realm far fetched. The separation betwen a physical world and a spirit world I spoke of isn't just something I made up. Tolkien wrote quite explicitly about this and it is a very important part of the metaphysics of Arda. That the ringswraiths primarly exist and are most powerful in the spirit world is something I think is well founded by the texts. Can't be bothered to look for quotes now but read the parts when Frodo wears the ring again and I think you will see what I mean. And consider Glorfindel, and how he is mighty in both worlds, or something like that.

I stand by my previous statement. What I said I believe is explicitly written in 'The Silmarillion' or 'Morgoth's Ring'. The children are a 'fea' and a 'hroa' living in harmony. The 'hroa' of the Ainur is just a rainment and they can choose to to travel 'naked' without losing any part of their being.

Well, this explains a lot. No wonder we've been talking past each other. I see that there's no further use in discussing evil with you, since you don't believe it exists. I of course find such a notion to be at least untenable and at worst delusional. I mean that, of course, in the nicest possible way. ;)

Which means that there also is no good, as both of these are just ideas of the e human mind, whicch always needs to characterise things (other examples are time and numbers which also don't exist really).

I don't think you can compare a concept such as evil with time and numbers. The names of our days and numbers are manmade constructions but not time and numbers themselves. They can be described with pure mathematics and are therefore real in an absolute sense within the limits of our perception.

You shouldn't post under influence btw :D

I don't want to go off topic, but...
 

You can, because evil is an idea, it is a concept. You can do something in one place that is evil, but doesn't count on another. Time is relative (depending on how fast you go). But maybe I wasn't right comparing the other two but you get the idea. We just put things in classes to understand them.

But ok, I get your point. But at least, you say there is no evil

^Sure, to say that there's no evil is to say that there's no good too.

I should (again) point out that I don't believe in 'Good' or 'Evil' in any absolute sense or theological application. I certainly think that some actions, such as helping people, are better than other actions, such as killing people. But that's an opinion, nothing more.

You find my statement that evil doesn't exist to be untenable?? Well, "delusional" is also a relative concept and I'd like to see you prove that evil indeed exists. That is to me an untenable notion but I mean it in the nicest possible way too. I'm certainly not here to disrespect anyone's religious beliefs.

Gobtwiddle by the way... Gobtwiddle! :) That's a word I've never come across. Care to enlighten us?

I must decline to pick up that gauntlet, for it would mean having first to prove that philosophical relativism is itself untenable (which I hold to be the case), and that would not be fitting to this thread, nor do I care to involve myself in such a debate; I have better and more interesting things to do with my time on the Downs.

I made up the word, here on the Downs, as a matter of fact, in response to something posted by someone else that I instantly recognized as nonsense. So for starters, Gobtwiddle = nonsense; however, it's a more graphic rendering since it is related to "Shut yer gob!" - - which is to say, "shut your mouth!" So a "gob" being mouth, or for the sake of my coining, "lips", to "twiddle" one's "gobs" is to pass one's forefinger over one's lips while mildly humming. In the end, it's just a whimsical new way to say "nonsense". :)

^So your saying it's just an euphemism for "Shut up!"

Why I oughta...

Probably a good call that.

No, not for "shut up", but for "that's nonsense". As in, "you're just twiddling your lips". :p But yes. It's time for me to be moving on now. It's been fun.

I'm quoting myself because someone, who apparently has not the courage to identify him- or herself, gave me a negative rep, describing the above as "haughty". Thank you for the honor of so naming what I said. I have arrived at last. :D

But seriously, why would someone consider the above haughty? I raise the question because it has to do with the concept of evil, which, since this discussion has closed in terms of any other topic, might as well continue as a discussion of our beliefs towards evil (certainly in reference to Tolkien's works).

If I were to take a guess as why the above seemed haughty, it is because I named someone else's belief as both logically untenable and delusional. First, definitions. "Logically untenable" means that a belief cannot be defended by logic. "Delusional" means that a belief is held in spite of clear evidence to the contrary, precisely because the one holding the belief refuses to acknowledge that a thing is what it is; in this case, evil.

So allow me to ask: is the evil depicted in Tolkien a mere fantasy, something that does not actually exist in the world in which we live? Are there no modern day Sarumans who bend and 'filet' truth and reality into rationalizations to justify their own agendas, desires, and motivations? Are there no murderers who are just as willing to steal, kill and destroy as the orcs of LotR (after all, how many times did Tolkien refer to modern-day orcs?)?

I eagerly await anyone's answer as to how evil does not exist; my thanks in advance.