Dol Guldur

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths.

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.

But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

Easy- he felt a disturbance in the Force...

As to the W-K- that derives from his old title (Witch) King of Angmar. Although it's not out of the question that he or some other Wraith might have been ruler of a Black Numenorean realm, I doubt any BN colonists would have dared take the title of King so long as the House of Elros ruled across the Sea.

In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.

Nay, that's improbable. The Tale of the Years says:

2251 - Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

Of the Nine, it is said, which implies their number was completed during that time (I also don't think it happened all at once, but let's say from the moment Sauron achieved the Rings - 1690s - which was plenty time to collect nine people), and, mainly, there is the note of division of the Númenoreans. Yes, I believe the three Númenorean Nazgul could have been among the last ones, but not during Sauron's captivity, but by this time - simply some wicked Númenoreans who lived in the M-E colonies, I believe. You know, an evil prefect, a greedy ambassador, a pioneer who wanted to explore M-E and was interested in sorcery.

And concerning WK, I agree with Nerwen - the Lord of the Nazgul achieved this "King" title only after his reign in Angmar, which is Third Age.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

2251 - Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

You know, the events in this annal might not be unrelated. Could Numenorean Nazgul in fact have been acting as Sauronian agants in Numenor, leading to the said division?

[Gordis]

I could have sworn I have posted in this thread a few days ago - and my post shows as the last one. But why can't I see it?

Edit: now when I have posted, my post and Nerwen's post have magically reappeared. - A bug?

Nerwen: Yes, he does sound rather as if he's just been consulting the Lonely Middle-earth Westron Phrasebook

Wery probably such-like existed in Mordor libraries...

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

True, but I still feel that The lord was proably a king before taking the Ring, Sauron is title coscios enough that he wouldn't put a commoner in chrage over royalty and we KNOW Khamul was a king while alive.



But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

by "most loyal" I meant most loyal while they lived and had free will. But I see your point as well

Also what about Herumor and Fuinur the two addtional Numernorean who sauron gave "other powers" so that they could become kings amoung the Haradrim. It seems to me that the reason they were not given rings (after all having a Wraith kings amoung the Haradrim migh have been useful to Sauron paricularly if one ruled near Harad and one Far Harad in the same manner as Angmar.) was simply becuse Sauron had no more rings to give

[zxcvbn]

The concept art of Dol Guldur posted earlier just reeked of 'generic spiky black walled Mordor fortress'. Why should all of Sauron's strongholds have identical, generic architecture? In my opinion, Dol Guldur, just like Minas Morgul, should have an appearance distinct from Barad-dur and the Black Gates. Something like a tall 'Sorcerer's Tower'(from where the Necromancer could survey his surroundings) at the centre of Amon Lanc, surrounded by a layer of walls and many entrances into the underground dungeons. This, in turn, would be surrounded by a 'Dark forest'(corrupted by Sauron's power, filled with strange beasts and Black Huorns).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

True, but I still feel that The lord was proably a king before taking the Ring, Sauron is title coscios enough that he wouldn't put a commoner in chrage over royalty and we KNOW Khamul was a king while alive.

What's your source for that, Alfirin? I can't find anything about it in UT.

Btw– you need to fix up your tags– you've got that comment inside a quote from me.

[Sir Kohran]

This discussion seems to be going a bit off-topic...

Anyway, I always imagined Dol Guldur being both on the surface and underground - a sort of basic fortress structure on the top, and then a much bigger and more complex set of prisons and other foul places beneath the surface. It would sort of get more evil the further down you went.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What's your source for that, Alfirin? I can't find anything about it in UT.

Btw– you need to fix up your tags– you've got that comment inside a quote from me.

I was using my copy of The A-Z of tolkein. But based on you comments I'm putting it away as this is the second time that something it has said has lead me down the absolutely wrong road. my apologies for the tag in tag too I'n still not very good at posting and assumed it would split the quote when I posted between