Dol Guldur

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Why would he tell Sauron? - to position himself as a powerful ally, not a lowly servant, Saruman had to impress Sauron with his power. Also, I am almost sure that the two Maiar had been quite well acquainted while they both were in the train of Aule in Valinor - like two post-docs of the same professor. It may well be that Curumo's admiration and envy for Sauron dates back to these times.

Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron. And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.

He wouldn't be so impressed if Elrond came there, I believe.

Oh yes, he would. He was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.

As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one.

I believe you are making it too simplificated. Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Envy? Definitely. Admiration? Never. Saruman envied Sauron his skills, but I think he did not admire him for that. And surely he chose matters of less overall importance, though seeming important, to impress Sauron.

I am not an expert on psychology, but I would say it is one thing to envy a person and maybe try to harm him because of that envy and another thing is to envy someone and try to emulate him in all things - big and small. That (to me) speaks of admiration.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And after all, telling Sauron "look, we are all Maiar and came from the West" would not be much of a help to Sauron anyway. What use this information has? None. And I also believe that the Istari did not think consciously anymore about that they were Maiar - and about the West, cf. the quote I cited above.

Not that, but something like: “I am your old pal Curumo, don’t you remember me? I have always been in awe of your skills with metal and gems and the old Gaffer Aule has never been the same since you left, lamenting the loss of his best pupil. But now I see you have chosen the right path. Middle Earth needs order.”
And the quote you have provided doesn’t tell that the incarnate Maiar had lost all memory of their former lives.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

[Sauron] was quite afraid of all the Wise, and of all the Elf-lords. The most of Galadriel (and I believe if there was a person he was afraid of the most in M-E, except maybe for Isildur's heir, if he was found, it would be her), but I believe he won't like Elrond running around his fortress as well.

What you say, I think, contradicts the Letter 246

In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold [the Ring] from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. […] Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.

Sure, in 2063 Sauron was not as powerful as in 3019, but still the grade of “scariness” of the Wise would not be changed: with Gandalf (and probably Saruman before his downfall) at the top, Elrond and Galadriel below and “Mortals” at the end of the list..

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Meeting a Maia is not the same as meeting a bull, you don't recognize him every other time because he has horns, and even then you could mistake him for a buffalo. WK would, I believe, recognize a Sauron if he met one - that is, he could recognize Annatar. But a) the Istari were all incarnate, so something completely different, and b) as I said, it's individual. He would say "this is a powerful entity", but not "this is a maia". Do you think WK would say "this is a maia" if he met Balrog? Hardly. He'd say "a demon of the ancient world", meaning nothing more and nothing less. The same, with Gandalf, "this is a Wizard", something like Saruman, but nothing more, nothing less. And Sauron for him is Sauron.

I am not sure your analysis is correct re: the Witch-King. As for mistaking a bull for a buffalo, here the Witch-King would be as prone to mistakes as any other Man, maybe more - owing to his poor sight in daylight. That would have been the case with the Wizards as well, if the WK had only to rely on his sight in the World of Light.
But a hobbit or an ordinary man would probably mistake Glorfindel for Legolas (supposing the latter were blond as well). The WK would never make such a mistake, as Glorfindel shines in the Spirit world, while Legolas doesn’t.

Do you know how Maiar look in the Spirit World? I don’t. Logically they should have some presence there, no less than Calaquendi Elves (for have they not seen the Light of the Trees as well?). Thus it may well be that the Calaquendi Elves glow, for instance, orange, while Maiar have pure white glow. And, if that is the case, then the WK would be able to tell that the wizards and the Barlog have a glow unsettlingly similar to that of Sauron. Thus the three are of the same kind – Maiar.
And yea, the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life, and a close associate of Sauron in wraithdom, most likely knew full well that Barlogs were Maiar in Melkor’s service. To whom do you think Sauron told his First Age tales while in his cups?

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life...

Numenorean? Show me.

[Nerwen]

Three of them were Númenórean lords; I don't think Tolkien ever said which three.

[Alfirin]

All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths. While it would be a compelling sign of Saurons sucess in corrupting the Numernoreans if the three ring reciptients were members of the Numernorean Royal line, it seems likey that if Tolkein had meant it to be, he would have certainly said so. I feel that the Numernorean three were probably all sorcerors in life, (Tolkein said that some of the Wraiths were) icidentally I also think that the witch king was proaobly the first man Sauron gave a ring to. (The three to Numernor seems to suggest that Sauron did not give all of the rings to thier recipients at once, but waited for likely candidates to appear to him.) and command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths.

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.

But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?

Easy- he felt a disturbance in the Force...

As to the W-K- that derives from his old title (Witch) King of Angmar. Although it's not out of the question that he or some other Wraith might have been ruler of a Black Numenorean realm, I doubt any BN colonists would have dared take the title of King so long as the House of Elros ruled across the Sea.

In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

True, but I still feel that The lord was proably a king before taking the Ring, Sauron is title coscios enough that he wouldn't put a commoner in chrage over royalty and we KNOW Khamul was a king while alive.



But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

by "most loyal" I meant most loyal while they lived and had free will. But I see your point as well

Also what about Herumor and Fuinur the two addtional Numernorean who sauron gave "other powers" so that they could become kings amoung the Haradrim. It seems to me that the reason they were not given rings (after all having a Wraith kings amoung the Haradrim migh have been useful to Sauron paricularly if one ruled near Harad and one Far Harad in the same manner as Angmar.) was simply becuse Sauron had no more rings to give

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

[Witch-King was] Numenorean? Show me.

Three of the nazgul were Numenorean Lords.
Even Sauron, when he had to choose a man for a high position, preferred Numenoreans (Mouth of Sauron)

The Witch-King was the tallest of the Nine - and Numenoreans, as we know, are normally very tall, taller than non-Numenoreans. Also in Tolkien's world (funny as it sounds) the taller, the nobler.

Also look how differently the nazgul speak Westron, which is derived from Numenorean Adunaic.
Khamul the Easterling spoke Westron haltingly, with foreign accent (the Gaffer:"It was one of the Big Folk from foreign parts. He spoke funny."). Khamul used simple sentences: “I come from yonder,” “Have you seen Baggins?” “Baggins has left,” “He is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold.”

Now compare it to the Witch-Kings grand style: "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
Here we have a native Adunaic-speaker.

In the LOTR drafts published in HOME 6-8, all the wizards were Men - of a "noble profession", but the Wizard-King was specifically said to be a Man from Numenor:

"Denetor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the Wizard King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...from Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight'...""The War of the Ring" p.326.

But we don't really need assumptions anymore. There is new evidence published in Tolkien Reader's Companion p.20.

The name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably (like the Lieutenant of Barad-dur) of Numenorean descent.
- Tolkien's manuscript of "Nomenclature"

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

You know, the events in this annal might not be unrelated. Could Numenorean Nazgul in fact have been acting as Sauronian agants in Numenor, leading to the said division?

That's what Alcuin's theory is about http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm
Other theories are discussed here: http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/u...c;f=1;t=002315

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Also look how differently the nazgul speak Westron, which is derived from Numenorean Adunaic.
Khamul the Easterling spoke Westron haltingly, with foreign accent (the Gaffer:"It was one of the Big Folk from foreign parts. He spoke funny."). Khamul used simple sentences: “I come from yonder,” “Have you seen Baggins?” “Baggins has left,” “He is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold.”

Yes, he does sound rather as if he's just been consulting the Lonely Middle-earth Westron Phrasebook, doesn't he?