What Next To Read . . .?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I'd be careful (very, very careful) with the words "of all the time", but I take it that you had in mind only current (or more or less current) books from current authors. But I won't be underrating them as well, because although I'm not sure if the discussion can be of the same quality I believe there are lots and lots of people who don't mind discussing anything from Harry Potter through Narnia and Conan to the works of H.P. Lovecraft. I am sure LotR is number one among these and only time will show whether for example Harry Potter is going to fall into nothing, but generally all the six million volume fantasy sagas definitely provide us with far much larger universe than LotR, with for example great possibilities for fan fiction etc. So why are they not the number one? Basically, they often lack the other things that Tolkien can offer: the language, the "vividness" (or how to say that) of the world, the complexity of the characters, who knows what else? And also the way how it's all put together. Other books that have this may lack for example the complexity of the world in which the stories take place. And so on.

I have tried Narnia novels many years ago, & I felt they were even lower in quality than the Hobbit (which is itself a good novel). As for Harry Potter, these books are aimed at the younger generation who grew up watching Rugrats & Teletubbies. Both of these are simply not of the same standard I am looking for in view of a book that may rival the LOTR in terms of literacy vigour.

What other books are out there that can include imaginative creatures like the Nazgul, the Balrog, Hobbits, Gandalf etc. but from another author's perspective? Personally, I liked the Lone Wolf adventures by Joe Dever, which had some excellent characters within Good & Evil.

[radagastly]

There is, of course, the thread over in Novices and Newcomers, called What other Fantasy books do YOU read?:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1338

It has many, many pages of people's recommendations. I enjoyed Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series, which has some fairly good characterization, but does not, alas, have quite the literary breadth of Middle Earth. That's my favorite lately. Some of the older fantasies, written before Tolkien's popularity, are less bound by the archetypes he created. The Worm Ouroboros by (I believe his name was) Ellison (not Harlan Ellison, but someone much earlier), and Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast trilogy. If I were you, I'd check out the thread I linked. There must be something there that catches your attention.

Originally Posted by radagastly

There is, of course, the thread over in Novices and Newcomers, called What other Fantasy books do YOU read?:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1338

It has many, many pages of people's recommendations. I enjoyed Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber series, which has some fairly good characterization, but does not, alas, have quite the literary breadth of Middle Earth. That's my favorite lately. Some of the older fantasies, written before Tolkien's popularity, are less bound by the archetypes he created. The Worm Ouroboros by (I believe his name was) Ellison (not Harlan Ellison, but someone much earlier), and Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast trilogy. If I were you, I'd check out the thread I linked. There must be something there that catches your attention.

The thread you speak of, What other Fantasy books do YOU read, just talks about fantasy novels people like. It does not distinguish between those novels which can genuinely be likened to the LOTR in terms of characters, literacy, intellect etc. This thread demands these to a far higher order.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In terms of "moderns" with a high degree of intellect and literacy, E.R. Eddison's (not Harlan Ellison's!) The Worm Ouroboros (1922) rates very highly, as does David Lindsay's Voyage to Arcturus (1925; a challenge to read, in places nearly as dense as Joyce). Also, although IIRC also unknown to Tolkien, Peake's Gormenghast (1939). William Morris was a profound influence on Tolkien, especially The Roots of the Mountains, The House of the Wolfings, and his version of Sigurd; he also serves to demonstrate how elegant Tolkien's archaizing style really is compared to Morris' labored Victorian tushery!

Brilliant but utterly un-Tolkienian is T.H. White's The Once and Future King (1954).

Then of course there is all the ancient material: especially Beowulf (personally I prefer Tinker to either Heaney or Clark Hall) and the Volsungasaga, as well as Snorri's Prose Edda.

Indispensable also is Malory: as a matter of personal taste I think Caxton's edition is an improvement on the Winchester MS text.

Post-Tolkien there isn't a whole lot. Ursula Leguin is a brilliant author, but her best stuff is scifi rather than fantasy. Gene Wolfe (who corresponded with Tolkien as a young man) is very good in a wierd, hallucinatory way; but his mytho-historical work like Soldier of Arete is to me better than his fantasy New Sun series.

Of contemporaries, George R. R. Martin is about the only one I have time for, and he's basically mind-candy: a sprawling soap-opera episode of Dallas or Dynasty, with bloodshed. (A separate case is Guy Kay, whose one foray into high fantasy, The Fionavar Tapestry, isn't all that good, but whose quasi-historical novels are very good indeed).

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

In terms of "moderns" with a high degree of intellect and literacy, E.R. Eddison's (not Harlan Ellison's!) The Worm Ouroboros (1922) rates very highly, as does David Lindsay's Voyage to Arcturus (1925) (a challenge to read, in places nearly as dense as Joyce). Also, although IIRC also unknown to Tol;kien, Peake's Gormenghast (1939).

Then of course there is all the ancient material: especially Beowulf (personally I prefer Tinker to either Heaney or Clark Hall), and the Volsungasaga as well as Snorri's Prose Edda.

Indispensable also is Malory: as a matter of personaltaste I think Caxton's edition is an improvement on the Winchester MS text.

These sound much more like it, novels with a proven track record behind them that probably would not go amiss with Tolkein.

As for the Lone Wolf books, these excellent adventures were not in the main novels arena but single player role play books. Lone Wolf reminded me much of Aragorn in character & power as the Kai Lord & Grand Master. The Guild also had some connotations with that of Elves in Middle Earth. Keketaag the Avenger was an excellent champion of the Dark God Naar, much like the Witch King for Sauron. It appears Joe Dever was also a Tolkein enthusiast when writing these books.

[Hammerhand]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I have tried Narnia novels many years ago, & I felt they were even lower in quality than the Hobbit (which is itself a good novel). As for Harry Potter, these books are aimed at the younger generation who grew up watching Rugrats & Teletubbies. Both of these are simply not of the same standard I am looking for in view of a book that may rival the LOTR in terms of literacy vigour.

What other books are out there that can include imaginative creatures like the Nazgul, the Balrog, Hobbits, Gandalf etc. but from another author's perspective? Personally, I liked the Lone Wolf adventures by Joe Dever, which had some excellent characters within Good & Evil.

I think you have a very narrow minded perspective on what fine literature is. It sounds to me like you want to read novels that are totally similar to the ones you are already comfortable with. Might i recommend broadening the horizons.

I'm fairly confident some people reading that post will think ill of you for comments such as 'these books are aimed at the younger generation who grew up watching Rugrats & Teletubbies' and 'I felt they were even lower in quality than the Hobbit'; both of which were unctuous, for want of a better word.

[Alfirin]

I'm afraid that personally I must disagree on both The Worm Oroborus and A Voyage to Arcturus as being good choices for the Tolkein buff. Neither is all that Tolkinesque except on the most fundamnetal level. In addtion I feel that both have signifcant proalbmes as works of thier own.

While I have heard people auomatically go for the worm trilogy as being an automatic for tolkein lovers (the paperback copy I had even went so far as saying that it was the only conteporary work that could be judges as equal to LOTR. However while it does indeed have a fairly good mideval romance type plot to it, it is completely obfuscated by the language used. Tolkein while himself a linguist wrote LOTR in a fairy modern in educated form of English so that an ordinary person is able to follow the plot with realive ease. In contrast Eddison writes in a very archaic pseudo-shakesperian form (lots of "spakes" and so on) as well as often reverting to medival spelling of words even when those spellings are not all that close to ones a modern person would recognize ("crocodile" become "cocadrill" for example) Add on his frequen use of ancient sounding metaphors and aphorisms and you wind up with a prose style which if you are not already fluent in achaic English becomes simply mind numbing and almost ipossible to get through. Oroborous might be tolerable if it was a movie or radio dramatization, but as a book it is just impossible. Likewise, Lindsay's Voyage is a bit incomprehensible if you are not well educated in modern philsophy and in particular have a deep understading of Nietzsche and Wittgenstein (at least I've been told that if you have and understanding of them Lindsay makes sense) otherwise Lindsay is very confusing and more than a little depressing (the supreme power in the universe is pain?)

As for what I would reccoment in the Tolkien Vein, you could do worse than Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time its not nearly as literate as Tolkein but it has a good fantasy epic storline and at 13 600+ page book and going will at least keep you busy

[Boromir88]

I would suggest some of George Orwell's books...Animal Farm and 1984 in particular. Even though he is not a 'modern writer,' he was around during Tolkien's day, his books are still a good read.

I also disagree with Rowling's Harry Potter as being 'too childish.' Rowling delved into many of the old myths that Tolkien loved doing. One can have just as many 'intellectual debate' about Rowling's books as they can about Tolkien. She mostly sticks to Roman and Greek myth, as well as French influence, but her knowledge in those areas is quite impressive. Particularly (like Tolkien) with her use of names, and the meanings of names...Albus Dumbledore, Sybil Trelawney, Remus Lupin, Sirius Black, Draco and Lucius Malfoy, Hermione Granger, Minerva McGonagall, Filius Flitwick, Severus Snape, Voldemort, Nicolas Flamel, and the list goes on...all have interesting translations (or are historical figures) that fit with the personality of the character.

As an example, Severus Snape. Severus was the name of 2 Roman empires, and 'snape' means "to be hard upon" to "rebuke" or "snub." Hmm...I say that describes the potions master quite well. Of course, it doesn't just stop with the names either, there are places and creatures that all have mythological ties...Hippogriffs, Centaurs, Boggarts...etc

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I must disagree with Alfirin: the problem with post-Tolkien "Tolkieneqsue" books is that, well, they're being imitative rather than seeking their own voice and perspective. Thus Brookseddingsjordanpaolini all read as pale, weak imitations of Tolkien.

Your criticisms of Eddison and Lindsay boil down to their being "too hard;" which, in a thread asking for fantasies of intellectual weight, isn't much of an argument.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This is an interesting question - which other works carry a similar weight, are "intellectually demanding" and "offer stimulation for imagination and debate"? I have found that few works of the fantasy genre can stand up: Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series; Frank Herbert's Dune series, which could be classified as space fantasy; Philip Pullmann's These Dark Materials series (not entirely satisfactory, but definitely full of originality, worth reading); and yes, the Harry Potter books, in their own fashion and on their level as juvenile literature, at least in the beginning. However, the genre in which I do most of my reading is a different one, and I find that many of its works can fit into the category which is asked here: historical fiction.

Historical novels can take me to other times and places that are just as fantastic to me as fictional worlds. They give me food for thought, for both imagination and intellect, and bring to life a period of time which I was not able to experience directly in my lifetime. (I can only fantasize about living in Medieval England, for example, or Colonial India, just as some readers fantasize about going to Middle-earth.) The fact that they include actual history does not lessen their impact on my imagination; the very thing that makes Tolkien's Middle-earth come alive is, after all, verisimilitude. I find that the LotR often feels more like an historical novel than like any run of the mill fantasy.

I have read hundreds of historical novels in the course of past decades, so I can list only a very few favorite books that stand out in my memory - which speaks for their quality! (I have not included the classics, such as Dickens, Austen, etc., only more recent modern authors.)

The Pillars of the Earth - Ken Follett
Pope Joan - Donna Cross
The Physician - Noah Gordon
The Far Pavilions - M. M. Kaye

Oh, and if you haven't read C. S. Lewis' space trilogy, that definitely has more depth and interest than the Narnia books (which should in all fairness be compared only to other juvenile literature).

[Folwren]

I will say nothing about your comment concerning the Chronicles of Narnia. It would do no good.

However, I would say - don't put C.S. Lewis' work aside altogether. His Space Trilogy is exceptional (consisting of Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) and his book Till We Have Faces is extremely deep and intellectual.

-- Folwren

[radagastly]

Originally posted by Mansun:

The thread you speak of, What other Fantasy books do YOU read, just talks about fantasy novels people like. It does not distinguish between those novels which can genuinely be likened to the LOTR in terms of characters, literacy, intellect etc. This thread demands these to a far higher order.

And then you said this:

Personally, I liked the Lone Wolf adventures by Joe Dever, which had some excellent characters within Good & Evil.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking for. You have eschewed a tested and (somewhat) respected novelist (Zelazny) in favor of a gaming manual? Maybe if you made more clear exactly what kind of literature you prefer. If you want a repeat of Tolkien, The Sword of Shannara did that two decades before the LOTR movies. Or you could try Spencers The Faerie Queene:
http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/fqintro.html
It's loaded with incredible imagery, but it is very allegorical, virtually a literary morality play. Maybe this is more your taste? I'd actually like to know. Are you after something more contemporary? Or more difficult? I'm up for both, but I'm a little confused where you want this thread to go.

Originally Posted by Hammerhand

I think you have a very narrow minded perspective on what fine literature is. It sounds to me like you want to read novels that are totally similar to the ones you are already comfortable with. Might i recommend broadening the horizons.

I'm fairly confident some people reading that post will think ill of you for comments such as 'these books are aimed at the younger generation who grew up watching Rugrats & Teletubbies' and 'I felt they were even lower in quality than the Hobbit'; both of which were unctuous, for want of a better word.

The point I am making is, there must be other great literature out there that can rival the LOTR in every sense of the word. Harry Potter hardly sounds like it.

Originally Posted by radagastly

Originally posted by Mansun:


I'd actually like to know. Are you after something more contemporary? Or more difficult? I'm up for both, but I'm a little confused where you want this thread to go.

I would want to concentrate on the intellect side of a fantasy novel here most of all, besides having great characters & ideas. The Lone Wolf books I mentioned were not novels, but they maintained a reasonable amount of intellect within them, whilst offering an excellent display of characters & ideas

[Boromir88]

Harry Potter hardly sounds like it.~Mansun

And as I said in my last post, I wouldn't be too quick to judge Harry Potter as being 'devoid of intellect' simply because the target audience is young adults. I know people much older than me who not only love Rowling's writings, but also learn a great deal about languages, history, mythology and much more.

I noted the meaning of 'Severus Snape,' but surely it doesn't end there. How about Voldemort? 'mort' from the french 'mourir' = death...'vol de' has several translations...either 'flight of,' 'wings of,' something along those lines. So Voldemort = 'flight/wings of death'

Or how about Argus Filch? Argus was a greek monster with 100s of eyes...hmm Filch seems to see everything that goes on in Hogwartz.

Basically, I'm saying, just because the target audience was 'young adult,' that in no way means the Harry Potter books have no 'intellect' quality. Rowling drew from many of the same myths as Tolkien, as well as using some different references in her own specialized area (French influence...which was her major and I believe she taught in Scotland).

Or perhaps you would enjoy Isaac Asimov...as Tolkien said in a footnote in Letter 294: I enjoy the S.F.of Isaac Asimov

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

How about Voldemort? 'mort' from the french 'mourir' = death...'vol de' has several translations...either 'flight of,' 'wings of,' something along those lines. So Voldemort = 'flight/wings of death'

[/I]

As a side note
I would say flight of death /deathflight is probably the desired translation - Rowling would certainly be aware of a very famous French novel by Antoine de St Exupery (author of "The Little Prince") called "Vol de Nuit" or night flight. However voler is polysemic and can mean to steal. Voldemort could translate as theft of death which is possible given Riddle's desire for immortality.

[Bêthberry]

Certainly of historical interest is William Rice Burroughs' A Princess of Mars, the first in his Barsoom series. Jewellery of some note plays a part in the narrative.

[mark12_30]

When I think of "what next to read" I find that I am somehow looking for another eucatastrophe.

George MacDonald has some. Lilith, Phantastes, The Wise Woman, The Castle, The Golden Key.

[davem]

I'd forget looking for any fantasy novels that are as good as Tolkien's work - there aren't any.

If you're looking for something to move onto I'd suggest the Icelandic Sagas. The greatest is Njal's Saga, & that's probably the best place to start, but Egil's Saga or Grettir's Saga are also incredible works. If you liked CoH you'll definitely enjoy them. Be warned though, if you're not a fan of gallows humour:

One morning when Thorgeir was preparing to row out with two other men, one of whom was named Brand, Thorgeir was walking ahead with a leather skin on his back containing some drink. It was very dark, and as he passed the boat-house Thorfinn sprang out upon him and dealt him a blow with an axe between his shoulders. The axe went into something and made a squeaking noise. Thorfinn let go his axe, feeling quite sure that no bandages would be needed, and being very anxious to escape as fast as he could. He ran North, and reaching Arnes before the day had quite broken, said that he had killed Thorgeir and that Flosi must protect him....

(There follows a dispute over a beached whale)

Thorgeir Bottleback was the first to get on to the whale where Flosi's men were. Thorfinn, who was spoken of before, was cutting it up, standing near the head on the place where he had been carving. "I'm returning your axe!" said Thorgeir. Then he struck at Thorfinn's neck and cut off his head. (Grettir's Saga)

& graphic violence:

Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail-coat and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. Then Thorolf drew his sword and dealt blows on either side, his men also charging. Many Britons and Scots fell, but some turned and fled. (Egil's Saga)

you may not get on with them...

Originally Posted by davem

I'd forget looking for any fantasy novels that are as good as Tolkien's work - there aren't any.

And there's the opportunity that arises for any Tolkein fan. Why not use this as motivation to write a novel comparable to the Lord of the Rings? If someone who has the talent & desire, as well as imagination, then a tale about a quest to do some great deed by a small unknown would indeed become very popular. THough for it to last, it indeed would have to be of enormous quality & of literacy.

I have thought about doing so in the past, but as I am only 23 & time on my hands, it can wait a little longer . . .

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's been tried. Terry Brooks, Dennis McKiernan, Steven Donaldson.....

You can't out-Tolkien Tolkien. Nobody can. What's needed are authors with their *own* vision, not imitators.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mansun

And there's the opportunity that arises for any Tolkein fan. Why not use this as motivation to write a novel comparable to the Lord of the Rings? I have thought about doing so in the past, but as I am only 23 & time on my hands, it can wait a little longer . . .

And that's what millions (I dare to use that number) of Tolkien fans already tried. And some writers have finished this attempt in creating some of the books mentioned above. Not that I am skeptic on that, but... one should not think of himself more than he ought...

EDIT: Looks like William has similar thoughts on that. And I believe we are not the only ones.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And that's what millions (I dare to use that number) of Tolkien fans already tried. And some writers have finished this attempt in creating some of the books mentioned above. Not that I am skeptic on that, but... one should not think of himself more than he ought...

EDIT: Looks like William has similar thoughts on that. And I believe we are not the only ones.

What is wrong with having a try for one's own satisfaction? Tolkein did this, thinking that knobody would have any interest in his work. Anyway, as I said, it would have to be an intelligent person with at least a highly respected college degree (perhaps a PhD even) with lots of desire to stand a realistic chance of reaching the level of intricacy & literacy required.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

And there's the opportunity that arises for any Tolkein fan. Why not use this as motivation to write a novel comparable to the Lord of the Rings? If someone who has the talent & desire, as well as imagination, then a tale about a quest to do some great deed by a small unknown would indeed become very popular. THough for it to last, it indeed would have to be of enormous quality & of literacy.

I have thought about doing so in the past, but as I am only 23 & time on my hands, it can wait a little longer . . .

It's rather like Aule's imitation of Illuvatar that resulted in the Dwarves. I'd say that imitation as a form of compliment and respect is canon.

Hi! Newbie here, thought I'd wade into this with my two cents worth. I read The Hobbit and LOTR back in high school, and that was so long ago that Professor Tolkien was still among the living. I can recommend The Children of Lyr series by Evangeline Walton, her re-telling of the Mabinogion (Welsh legends). This was what I read right after Tolkien, and it's still with me. I also recommend author Caseal Mor's The Watchers series, which includes The Raven Game. This is a series of Celtic legends, and the stories told from the POV of one of the characters who is a raven. I read all sorts of books; history, historical mysteries, greek and roman history, and biographies and other stuff. I even read some Tolkien fanfiction! I could also recommend Terry Pratchett, although I consider him a "satirist" rather than a fantasy author. I personally like a good tale that you can step into and get lost in for awhile.

[Mithalwen]

Given that you clearly mean fantasy and I don't feel such need to disagree that it is the greatest piece of literature of all time .... much as I love it .

There are many non-fantasy works that I love and revisit but on the Fantasy side I am afraid returning to Narnia was a crashing disappointment. I loved the books so much as a child and bought a boxed set of hardbacks on sale thinking I might give them to my godson if I could bear to part.

I read the first three and I couldn't believe I used to like them so ..I didn't even think I liked them enough to give them to GS. It was even slightly horrific. I will try to reread the silver chair which I liked best as a child but....

More positively, if you want an intelligent contemporary writer in the fantasy genre - what about Terry Pratchett? There is a lot of humour but he uses discworld to make some shrewd observations about our own. Like Rowling he is a devotee of the one book that would challenge LOTR as my desert island choice, Brewers' Phrase and Fable. If you don't own a copy put it on your christmas list!

It is the most delightful reference book and the source of many of JK's names. And on the subject of JK - while her level of creation is not of the same nature as Tolkien, and she is not a don but she is a graduate linguist and more of a classicist than most of her generation and younger. He interest and feel for language is evident and she shares Tolkien's annoyance concerning the wrong translation of names.

Also worth a mention is Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast Triology- not easy but neither is Tolkien.

[Mithalwen]

I forgot to say that personally I haven't exhausted the paths Tolkien has to offer. I am just reading a book called Albion by Peter Ackroyd that is opening up newperspectives on it as well as other things.