Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

Well, in the 1937 QS he kills Morgoth but does not become a Vala.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

I have reread it more thoroughly and it seems we cannot pinpoint a date. I doubt it was in the 70s because Christopher Tolkien does not seem to believe the Second Prophecy of Mandos was retained.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

Forgive me for being a little blasphemous (I am not Catholic, so I don't know if this argument would wash) But I can sort of see a twisty sort of way Tolkien could allow that without tecnically violating Christian dogma. As far as I remember, Catholocism recognized that non human heavenly beings can also double as saints (or why some of the patron saints are angels and archangels) and perform the functions thereof. And certianly Eurpoean folklore is rife with stories of saints being sent down to earth to basically fulfill the same functions as angles (to carry dircet messages from God, and to intercede in human affairs when God so wills). So in a certain sense, becoming a saint, from the point of view of the individual who it is happening to (laying aside the temportal canonization process) is basically a human spirit being raised up to stand equal with the angels. Thought of that way, there is no real contradiction. Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

It was Eärendil who slew Ancalagon, not Túrin. The latter killed Glaurung.

At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process.

Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It was Eärendil who slew Ancalagon, not Túrin. The latter killed Glaurung.

At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process.

Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?

In Andreth's prophecy Turin comes back to kill Ancalagon.

Turin and his family are the only people to ever be cursed by Morgoth personally. In some ways Morgoth really was the master of Arda. Since everything in Arda to a greater or lesser extent was influenced by his will.

In other matters also it seemed that fortune was unfriendly to him, so that often what he designed went awry, and what he desired he did not gain:-The Children of Hurin

Now that was in Doriath protected by Melian's girdle.

Even so with all that he had against him nobody except Luthien, Beren and Earendil accomplished more in the war against Morgoth.

Turin had his faults and just like Morwen perhaps pride was his greatest flaw, but to live with Morgoth's foot on your neck since childhood is no easy task.