Rings of Power talk!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Professor did indeed use inverted, and sometimes archaic sentence structures at times (one of the things I enjoy about his writing). In this case though, I don't think that's the explanation.
In the relevant passage, Gandalf is speaking to the Council of Elrond about the dispositions of the Rings of Power, not the effects on their wearers. So it appears that Gandalf indeed is saying the Nazgûl had possession of their Nine Rings.
Whether that was merely a slip by Tolkien is conjectural, but I think my Saruman explanation is at least possible.

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

Find the spot yes, find where in the spot the ring might be no.
As for the WK leavings, we are told his cloak stays behind, and his crown. Everything else is left up to interpretation (I seem to remember Merry saying something to the effect that "There is nothing left but a crown and an empty cloak" but that is probably just the BBC version of the statement.) And even they may no longer be there (much as you like to believe that Gandalf made a cursory seach for the ring, I like to beleive the crown, and perhaps the cloak as well, would have been picked up by some loyal servant of Sauron, to be presented to Khamul (assuming that he inherits the title of "Witch King of Angmar" along with that of "Lord of the Nazgul")) But even if the armor is left behind with no hand inside it, the ring could easily fall off or out (depending on whether Gandalf thinks the WK would wear his ring under or over any mail gauntlet.)