Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:

The Nine the Nazgûl keep.

Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

Could be an error then.
PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

PSS: Where were the nine and their rings of power during the Hobbit?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Radtech

PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:

Originally Posted by FAQ of the Rings

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331)]
Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]
Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]
In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]
In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:



As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

One more possible explanation for Gandalf's statement "The Nine the Nazgûl keep", is that maybe it was Gandalf's (admittedly unclear) way of saying "The Nine are accounted for; they are forever associated with the Nazgûl".
Speculation? Yes? Was the passage in question very possibly a mere uncorrected slip? Yes. Still, like I said, I like to seek "in-world" answers to such questions as this whenever I can.

[Alfirin]

I would also like to point out that,while unlikey (in that it would be a deviation from the subject of the conversation) in a certain sense, the quote as it stands makes sense in another manner, that of meaning "The Nine are keptthe Nazgul", not literally, but figuratively. In a certian sense, each of the Nazgul is kept by his ring. The rings keep them in the sense of "keeping them slaves". They also likely "keep them" as in "preserve" them (out of all the ringbearers in the history, The Nazul are the ONLY ones (apart maybe from Gollum) whose time on earth is extended sufficiently that we KNOW thier rings have allowed them to "live past thier time" (Bilbo lives quite long for a hobbit, in fact as long as the longest lived hobbit known to that date, but the very fact that there was a hobbit before him that matched that age indicates that that lifespan is not outside of the range of normal hobbit possibility (i.e. that he could not have lived the exact same amount of time had he never worn the ring).