Rings of Power talk!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person.

I agree.

If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused).

I admit the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to work in the power of invisibility only so that the Rings themselves could be made invisible, and yet not the wearers, and before Sauron's plan was revealed? Why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful of the Elven Rings in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

I had not considered this before, which does raise the question of why Saruman did not discover Narya at this point if it was visible. But one does not necessarily search for something that isn't suspected in the first place, and Saruman's wrath may have been focused on keeping Gandalf prisoner... a fairly major step to have taken, as it was, and I'm not sure it's noted that he even took away Gandalf's staff.

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Galin

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused)..

I agree.

I always had the feeling that the Three Rings were visible if their bearers chose to make them so, more than that Frodo saw them because he himself bore the One. I wonder if he perhaps sensed their presence more than anyone else, though, as a result of being the Ringbearer. I agree with Galin's suggestion that Sam did see Nenya, but just didn't realise what it was - "I saw a star through your finger." Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

It's interesting that Galadriel is the only one to specifically tell Frodo where one of the Three lies: "It is not permitted to speak [of them], but it cannot be concealed from the Ringbearer, and one who has seen the Eye" (rough quotation from memory). Galadriel is known to be strong-willed, and may have many reasons for doing so. I always felt one of the main reasons, though, was that she felt he had a right to know. Perhaps Gandalf and Elrond thought it would be too risky, because such knowledge could be extracted from him by torture, but Galadriel reasoned that if the Ringbearer were captured, the game would be up in any case?

Maybe they also just felt that "he knew enough to be going on with" and didn't see any point in overloading him with more information. Not to mention the added responsibility of guarding further secrets. Plus, of course, the fact that we as the reader learn and wonder about things as Frodo does, and unsolved mysteries add to the richness of the story and keep us guessing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

I don't think the Three had any sort of invisibility. That power is specifically associated with the rings in which Sauron had a direct role in making. Invisibility is the "realm of hidden things", the shadow-world of the Nazgûl. Sauron seems to have endowed the One, the Seven, and the Nine with invisibility power with that in mind.
Why would the Elves had wanted the Three to have it, even if only as camouflage for the rings themselves? When the Three were fashioned, Sauron's plot involving the One was not known. Therefore, the Elves would have felt no call for any secrecy surrounding the Three or their use.

I favor the notion that Gandalf simply did not openly wear Narya at all times, but as Galin notes, Elrond and Galadriel would have been far more secure in wearing their rings, ensconced in secure locations.

[Galin]

Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

I was thinking more along the lines of Inziladun's recent post, that the Three were not connected to 'invisibility power' (which seemingly connects to Sauron's influence) even in this much measure, and that the Mirdain did not know of Sauron's plan when the Three were crafted.

When Galadriel first lifted up her arms: 'Frodo gazed at the Ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.' We don't know at this point that the Ring was necessarily invisible. Frodo didn't suddenly see a ring, he saw it and suddenly understood -- this connects to Galadriel's question later.

The second time Galadriel lifts her hand the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone. Frodo does ask why he cannot: '... see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them' but even this isn't exactly 'simple sight' but perception as well. As Ringbearer his 'sight has grown keener' -- not his physical visual powers I think, but his ability to see that which is hidden from the perception of others.

But of course comes the issue of Sam: yet note Galadriel's question compared to what had been noted about Frodo suddenly understanding: 'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.' Granted Galadriel doesn't say 'and recognize' to Sam as well, but I find it notable that 'and recognize' was added to a draft at some point, where the earlier text simply had 'see' for Frodo's question as well.

Sam doesn't actually mention any ring of course, admittedly suggesting invisibility, but he did see something -- and to my mind something connected to what was actually going on too -- he saw 'a star through your [Galadriel's] fingers'.

Again that's something, but perhaps Sam would not 'see' the truth even if he had noticed an actual ring: he wasn't the Bearer of the One, and as a Hobbit in general is 'Halfwise' and simple (and Sam already had said he didn't want 'to see no more magic' even). This would be quite like Tolkien in my opinion: a good way to illustrate perception would be to have Sam see something he thought was something else, and simply not understand what all this talk was about.

I'm not saying this is a clearly correct interpretation (especially if there is other text to consider on this point), however.