Rings of Power talk!

[jallanite]

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:

The Nine the Nazgûl keep.

Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:

The Nine the Nazgûl keep.

Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

The Professor did indeed use inverted, and sometimes archaic sentence structures at times (one of the things I enjoy about his writing). In this case though, I don't think that's the explanation.
In the relevant passage, Gandalf is speaking to the Council of Elrond about the dispositions of the Rings of Power, not the effects on their wearers. So it appears that Gandalf indeed is saying the Nazgûl had possession of their Nine Rings.
Whether that was merely a slip by Tolkien is conjectural, but I think my Saruman explanation is at least possible.

[jallanite]

From The Fellowship of the Ring, book II, chapter 2:

So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …

This goes back to Tolkien’s earliest drafts. From The Return of the Shadow, (HoME 6), page 78:

Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: and men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him [Sauron]; …

Later Tolkien discarded the idea of elf-wraiths and had nine rings, not three only, given directly by Sauron to Men. But the idea remains that the Men who had been turned into wraiths by the Rings brought their Rings to Sauron.

From The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter 7, three paragraphs from the end:

You [Frodo] saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.

From letter 246 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:

… they [the Nazgûl] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his [Sauron’s] that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control over their wills.

This shows what Tolkien considered to be the truth about who actually held the rings.

Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete.

My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention.

You might as well invent that Gandalf’s thought processes at the moment were being interfered with by his own ring through which he could access some of Sauron’s thoughts.

Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete.

In case I wasn't clear, my belief is that Sauron indeed did hold the Nine Rings.

Originally Posted by jallanite

My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention.

Your idea would require a puzzling change of subject in Gandalf's words: moving from discussion of what happened to the other Rings of Power to the specific effect of the Nine on the Nazgûl. I see no reason for that abrupt shift.

Originally Posted by jallanite

Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves.

I never said it was anything more than a possibility. The most likely explanation is probably that it was merely a slip by Tolkien; a piece of earlier, rejected thoughts that inadvertently slipped into the final text. I was simply looking for something in-world that would explain it.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Your idea would require a puzzling change of subject in Gandalf's words: moving from discussion of what happened to the other Rings of Power to the specific effect of the Nine on the Nazgûl. I see no reason for that abrupt shift.

I agree. The theory takes the sentence to be an inversion of an already inverted sentence. The sentence reads very awkwardly if interpreted by this theory, more so, I think, than any other sentence written by Tolkien, none of which calls for a supposed re-interpretation which reverses what Tolkien seems to write.

The most likely explanation is probably that it was merely a slip by Tolkien; a piece of earlier, rejected thoughts that inadvertently slipped into the final text. I was simply looking for something in-world that would explain it.

I agree here also. The sentence can be interpreted according to the theory, which might explain why Tolkien never noticed his miswriting. (If so, then that possible misinterpretation perhaps becomes the real interpretation, if it were Tolkien’s interpretation, Tolkien knowing what the sentence ought to mean.)

Unfortunately your former in-world explanation causes still more difficulties, which is why I don’t accept it as a valid in-world explanation.

I don’t recall who came up with this interpretation many years ago. Its sole advantage is that it works perfectly, if the reader is willing to accept that Gandalf is here speaking in an unusually awkward way. Perhaps that is easier to accept than that Gandalf is here simply wrong about something he was right about a few months back when explaining the fate of the rings to Frodo. One might also accept that Gandalf is here making a slip of his tongue such as people often do in real life. But in books generally speakers do not make casual slips of the tongue, except when they are supposed to be noticeably mentally disturbed to some extent which is not the case with Gandalf here.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Professor did indeed use inverted, and sometimes archaic sentence structures at times (one of the things I enjoy about his writing). In this case though, I don't think that's the explanation.
In the relevant passage, Gandalf is speaking to the Council of Elrond about the dispositions of the Rings of Power, not the effects on their wearers. So it appears that Gandalf indeed is saying the Nazgûl had possession of their Nine Rings.
Whether that was merely a slip by Tolkien is conjectural, but I think my Saruman explanation is at least possible.

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:

The Nine the Nazgûl keep.

Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

Could be an error then.
PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

PSS: Where were the nine and their rings of power during the Hobbit?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Radtech

PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:

Originally Posted by FAQ of the Rings

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331)]
Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]
Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]
In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]
In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:



As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

One more possible explanation for Gandalf's statement "The Nine the Nazgûl keep", is that maybe it was Gandalf's (admittedly unclear) way of saying "The Nine are accounted for; they are forever associated with the Nazgûl".
Speculation? Yes? Was the passage in question very possibly a mere uncorrected slip? Yes. Still, like I said, I like to seek "in-world" answers to such questions as this whenever I can.