Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

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Reply: You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?
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The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

That makes sense, thanks for your insight on this my friend.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ).

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

Ah, right. I see now. So many intertwined treads of thought in this topic I got confused. Sorry about that.

To address your thoughts about the Rings at Mithlond...

I'm only speculating here, but I wonder how much of the hiding of the rings is an innate, automatic function of the rings themselves (ie, go on finger = go invisible) and how much is an Art of the wearers (Elves & Maia) used to aid in keeping the secret.

We already know (from "many Partings" in RoTK) that Elves and Maia can communicate without talking, by their thoughts flashing back and forth between them (similar to what we might call telepathy) so it seems feasible that they might have an art or way for diverting peoples "NOTICE" from things like their ring.

For example, in Lorien when Frodo saw the Ring and Galadriel asks Sam "Did you see my ring?", Sam's response isn't a confused "WHAT ring? You don't have a ring. I can see your hand and there isn't any ring on it." Rather it was a simple "no, I didn't" - suggesting that, perhaps, once Galadirel mentioned it he "could" see it (at least physically see it, he still may not have comprehended what it really was).

Which raises at least a <possibility> that, at the end, in Mithlond, the Rings could be seen - less because of their being shorn of power, than because there was no longer any reason for their wearers to try and KEEP them hidden from the notice or awareness of other beings.

And, even so, to some (like Merry & Pippen) the presence of a Ring on an Elven Lord's (or Gandalf's) fnger would be no big deal - whether it were (or had been) a ring of power or not. "Nobles wear rings, big deal" could have been as far as the thought would go. Especially since the **BIG** deal at that time was that Frodo was going away - for good.
Frodo, being a ringbearer, was more likely to be sensitive to the presence of such little things as "rings". Much like a person who was once traumatized by a man with a mole on his left cheek, might thereafter be far more like than other people to notice men who happen to have moles on their left cheek.

Again, this is just a speculation. It "seems" reasonable and feasible to me, and it "might" be close to the truth - but then again it might not be.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

LOTR Many Partings

If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

The idea that the Three were not constantly worn by the bearers, either before or after Sauron's fall, would to me explain much.

x/d with Puddleglum

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.
If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? Only two times (did I miss any?). I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the fact that in the two cases (a small sample-size), only Frodo (the primary source of record for those events - where he was eyewitness) is explicitly highlighted as seeing.

Especially since he doesn't (in these reports) say no one else DID see or understand - only stays silent on the point. And, we can be fairly certain that Gandalf & Elrond (who were present in each case) "could" see Galadriel's ring (being ring wearers themselves) - AND understand that the flash was her holding up the ring. Yet, that is also not mentioned in the record.

Frodo, as the author of this part of the record, and an eye-witness to the events in it, could well have felt no particular need to give a complete list of who else could and could not see the ring, or understand the flash. His mind was on other things.


BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on - but (sadly) not x/d ???

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the lack of reference to it.

I know there's nothing definite. It just strikes me that only Frodo is ever mentioned as seeing the Three.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on mean - but (sadly) not x/d ???

It just indicates a cross-post with someone else.

[Radtech51]

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

This is one of the many puzzlements in The Lord of the Rings. At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-rings and presumably only knows that Galadriel is a ring-bearer, yet the text says:

But at length all was said, and they parted again for a while, until it was time for the Three Rings to pass away.

Of course since Frodo later knows to set out with Sam to meet with Galadriel and Elrond on September 21st of the year 1421 Shire Reckoning, he presumably has received messages from the Elves about their planned return over the Seas and learned that Bilbo is to go with them, and he himself may go with them if he wishes, and that to Sam also permission is given to at last depart. It may well be that among these communications Frodo had been informed that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the Elven-rings but that he had not explicitly said so in his writing. It is only explicitly said so in the last pages of The Lord of the Rings which must be derived from Sam’s writing.

Then of course Tolkien is to be imagined as himself retelling the story in the third person, at which point the phase “until it was time for the Three rings to pass away” may be understood to have entered the tale.

When and at what point the three Elven-rings lost all their power is not told. Indeed, they may still have some power in them again when last seen. The story does not tell, just as it does not tell whether they may not have become completely powerless immediately upon the destruction of the One Ring.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by jallanite

At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-rings

Well, we don't actually even "know" that. The record that became LOTR was, ostensibly, written by the Hobbits (primarily Frodo) and it doesn't explicitly "mention" the location of the other two rings before this, but the record wasn't essentially ABOUT the location of the three rings and there would have been no driving reason for Frodo to report it even if he had known (as interesting as it may have been to *US* to read it ).

So, maybe he did know, maybe he didn't.

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

You know, with 20 20 hindsight, who else could have had the three rings?

[jallanite]

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

Frodo is shown at the end of the Lord of the Rings to have learned much information whose source is not given: the exact date that Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Bilbo will be passing through the Shire, and that Frodo may join them in their journey to the west if he wishes, and that the same opportunity will eventually be given to Sam.

I see no sign that Frodo knows at the point where Galadriel departs that Elrond and Gandalf also bore rings. Possibly he is merely being discrete in not including what was then a secret in the Red Book. Possibly Frodo later learned it from whatever sources informed him of the exact time when Bilbo, Galadriel, and Elrond would be passing through the Shire on their way to the west, and that he might go with them if he wished, and that to Sam also the same choice would be given eventually. Possibly Frodo learned of the disposition of the Three Elven-rings from Elrond or Galadriel or Bilbo on his journey west.

Originally Posted by blantyr

You know, with 20 20 hindsight, who else could have had the three rings?

With 20 20 hindsight, of course the right answer would emerge. But the story as told allows the possibility that Cirdan, Glorfindel, or Celeborn might have been bearers of Elven-rings. Or possibly some other elves of whom we have not been told. Note that we are only told the last of the Elven-rings bore a red stone and was a ring of fire at the same time that we are told that Gandalf had born it.

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.



Frodo is shown at the end of the Lord of the Rings to have learned much information whose source is not given: the exact date that Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Bilbo will be passing through the Shire, and that Frodo may join them in their journey to the west if he wishes, and that the same opportunity will eventually be given to Sam.

I see no sign that Frodo knows at the point where Galadriel departs that Elrond and Gandalf also bore rings. Possibly he is merely being discrete in not including what was then a secret in the Red Book. Possibly Frodo later learned it from whatever sources informed him of the exact time when Bilbo, Galadriel, and Elrond would be passing through the Shire on their way to the west, and that he might go with them if he wished, and that to Sam also the same choice would be given eventually. Possibly Frodo learned of the disposition of the Three Elven-rings from Elrond or Galadriel or Bilbo on his journey west.



With 20 20 hindsight, of course the right answer would emerge. But the story as told allows the possibility that Cirdan, Glorfindel, or Celeborn might have been bearers of Elven-rings. Or possibly some other elves of whom we have not been told. Note that we are only told the last of the Elven-rings bore a red stone and was a ring of fire at the same time that we are told that Gandalf had born it.

I thought of another way one could interpret this ending. It could be that the three rings of power were no longer needed to be hidden or kept as a secret especially now that they're about to be taken away forever from middle earth? Perhaps they all wielded them openly now in the end to symbolize the point of no more fear or secrets concerning the rings of power and that this time the war of the rings has come to an end?

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by jallanite

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.

But the text DOESN'T tell us that at that time.

Except for the statement of Galadriel's farewell flash, the text at this time doesn't tell us ANYTHING about whether the rings were worn on hands, were visible or invisible, were locked in luggage or attached to chains of flashing, multi-colored lights (ok, I'm being silly with that last option). Since the text doesn't tell us, we don't know - we can only speculate.

We know that prior to the destruction of the One they were not worn openly - but as Galadriel wore hers in Lorien without Sam realizing she even HAD a ring this "not worn openly" doesn't necessarily mean "not worn".

But we don't explicitly know whether, AFTER destruction of the One, they continued to "not wear openly", or whether it was now a moot point and they "could" wear them openly.

Either are fair speculations. My only objection was what appeared to be an absolute statement that Frodo "WAS unaware" about Elrond & Galadriel.

He "might" have been unaware, or he "might" have known by then. After all, he spent a lot of time with Gandalf in Minas Tirith from mid-April to MidSummer (Unfinished Tales tells us they shared a house), and he reasonably could also have spent time with Elrond as well.

My "explaination" (or reason for why I thought what I did) was based upon

• Frodo's long, intimate connection with Rings of Power - which predated the flash from Galadriel's ring at the parting.
• Frodo's having spent time with Gandalf in Minas Tirith (and having at least the opportunity to spend time with Elrond there as well) - which also predates the parting flash from Galadriel.

So, while my speculation may be either right or wrong, I do think it is predicated upon conditions as they were at the time referenced (the parting near Moria).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

[Radtech51]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

You might be right about the Three immediately becoming powerless after the one ring was destroyed, however if they were then how did Galadriel create that last parting flash of light from her ring in display to Frodo? It's true she was a powerful sorceress of sorts so I suppose creating a flash of light would not prove to difficult for her, but still it makes you wonder.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Radtech51

You might be right about the Three immediately becoming powerless after the one ring was destroyed, however if they were then how did Galadriel create that last parting flash of light from her ring in display to Frodo? It's true she was a powerful sorceress of sorts so I suppose creating a flash of light would not prove to difficult for her, but still it makes you wonder.

At the time of the parting of the hobbits and Gandalf from Galadriel et al, the group had been camped on a "low hill" within sight of the Mountains of Moria, so there was high ground in the area.

Quickly fading into the stones and the shadows the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

The description of the lighting as producing "shadows", added to the "gathering mist", makes it possible in my mind that it was sunset. Maybe Galadriel simply held up Nenya, upon which a last glint of sunlight lit.

[Radtech51]

I recently came across a part in the Lord of the Rings during the council meeting in Rivendale where it was specifically stated that the (Nine) rings of power the Ring Wraiths Keep. Perhaps it wasn't known that Sauron took the Nine from them?