Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There is a noticeable lack of discussion on this thread this week - I do hope those interested weren't expecting a new one for the second part! Question: Would you like more time, or shall we conclude with the last piece of the story starting Monday?

I do realize that Thanksgiving weekend could affect the level of posting right now - if you want to join in but need more time, please say so, and we'll add another week for this part.

[Galadriel55]

I was also wondering about that - where is everybody?

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

There is a noticeable lack of discussion on this thread this week...

Well, talking to yourself isn't that fun...

I think Pitchie said something about discussing the Outlaws, but he didn't post.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, I was, er, preoccupied with puzzling matters, and I'm a little too tired for serious posting today; but if you'd add another week, Esty, I'd be glad to offer my farthing's worth about outlaws and (maybe) more after the weekend.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Discussion on this section of the chapter will continue for the coming week - I look forward to reading your posts!

[Pitchwife]

Allright, Túrin's band of outlaws. Here we get another look at 'ordinary' Men of the First Age and how the disasters of war affected (or rather ruined) their lives:

Originally Posted by UT Narn, Túrin among the Outlaws

For in that region of ruin houseless and desperate Men went astray: remnants of battle and defeat, and lands laid waste; and some were Men driven into the wild for evil deeds. They hunted and gathered such food as they could; but in winter when hunger drove them they were to be feared as wolves, and Gaurwaith, the wolf-men, they were called by those who defended their homes.

So while some of Túrin's band, such as Forweg and Andróg, were outlaws and criminals to begin with, I think it's safe to assume that most of them were originally decent enough folk, driven to prey on their own kind by the extremity of need.

It's also interesting how Túrin comports himself among his new companions. First he just keeps aloof and does "little to restrain their evil deeds", although they disgust and at times enrage him. Then, after witnessing the attempted rape of a woman by Forweg and Andróg, he leads them into the wild in order to avoid further confrontation with their fellow Men; but only after he has met Beleg again (being thus reminded of how deep he has fallen) does he think of actively turning them to a better purpose and begins forging them into a guerrilla force fighting the servants of Morgoth. It's like he had forgotten himself and needed Beleg to remind him who and what he is.

This chapter and the following (Of Mîm the Dwarf) also contain two jewels of vividly drawn and delightfully morally ambiguous characters: Mîm (who will always remain another of my favourites) with his peculiar sense of honour, his deep but not unfounded resentment of Elves, his grudging respect for Túrin and his acerbic lines of dialogue, and on the other hand his antagonist Andróg, whose shrewd cynicism earns him my sympathy in spite of his rotten character.

As for the chapter The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, containing Túrin's reunion with Sador Labadal, his revenge on the usurper Brodda, Sador's death and Aerin's suicide in the burning hall, this is to me the part of the Narn which is closest to the spirit of Icelandic sagas, especially in the cameo character of Aerin.

Originally Posted by G55

But in the first two he is still called "Turin" in the narration. However, after he asks the Men of Brethil to forget his name and call him "Turambar" instead, the narration also switches the name! When the narration channels someone's thoughts from outside (Morwen, Nienor, Mablung, etc) he is referred to as Turin, but when it talks about him specifically, he is called Turambar, until, I believe, the last chapters when all is revealed. It is as if he commanded Tolkien himself to forget his real name!

Nice observation, I hadn't noticed that.

Originally Posted by G55

Evidently, the third "name/identity change" was the most significant. And the most "complete". And the name that he takes is the least connected to his past ("Master of Doom" says little, at least compared to "Neithan" and "Agarwaen").

Not coincidentally, I think - the name represents his attempt to distance himself from his past, turn over the metaphorical page and 'begin a new life' (something that never works out in my experience, as Túrin will find out soon enough).

[Guinevere]

I agree very much with everything Pitchwife has written!

Whereas the style of "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" reminded me more of the LotR, the CoH seems even more modern, with those morally ambiguous characters, rogues, and close characterisations.
In Doriath we meet Elves that are not only good and wise. (Saeros is a thoroughly disagreeable character, and Nellas very naïve)

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal! But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for the chapter The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, containing Túrin's reunion with Sador Labadal, his revenge on the usurper Brodda, Sador's death and Aerin's suicide in the burning hall, this is to me the part of the Narn which is closest to the spirit of Icelandic sagas, especially in the cameo character of Aerin.

Nice observation. I seem to remember that JRRT referred to Turin's story at least once as 'Turinssaga', which leads one to wonder to what degree the sagas influenced it.

Of course the burning of the hall reminds one of Njal's saga, though the circumstances are quite different. Turin's return to Dor-Lomin reminds me a bit of various young Icelanders returning to Iceland after going abroad and entering the service of a Norse king. And killing Brodda is of course exactly what any Icelander would do; no doubt if this were a saga Turin would have been sentenced to outlawry at the next Althing.

Indeed, at first glance Turin's outlawry appears to put the story somewhere in the genre of the outlaw sagas like Grettir's or Gisli Sursson's, but when you dig slightly deeper, Turin's outlawry differs significantly from theirs. If this were like those sagas, Sador's, Beleg's, and Brodda's kinsmen would want vengeance and Turin would be constantly on the run from them. Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

"Have you always lived with your heart and half your mind far away?" (from memory) - Yes, he did. When he was with Nellas, he wasn't really with her - he was with Lalaith. I remember posting a while ago about this somewhere, but there is a note that says that (from memory again) "in all faces of women he sought the face of Lalaith". He is still that lost child who just experienced first grief, even though he pretends to be a "hard man by fate". Well, he doesn't exacly pretend, he is - but there is still an element of a child in him.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

Well, it's Androg who's done the killing, and he was punished harshly by Mim. But I agree that it is not easy to bear the presence of such a person every day in your own home. Turin's ransom is a different thing altogether, though the point is still valid.

But as much as I pity Mim, I can't call him an angel. Time and again he shows that he's no brave hero.

You made me think of something. Turin and Mim became very close, because they read each other's hearts. They have things in common - both were not masters in their own house (Mim at Amon Rudh and Turin in Dor-lomin), both had strict principles based on pride, and both are unable or unwilling to forgive. They speak a common language.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal!

Saying this, I would like to compare the Labadal of Turin's youth and his manhood. The first Labadal is a friend. Sometimes a guide and a teacher, but still a friend. An equal, or even a superior. The second Labadal is a faithful servant - but much inferior. Is it only Turin's age that made the difference? The disappearance of Hurin and Morwen? His own weakness (physical, yes, but also spiritual compared with Turin's might. Perhaps also the weakness of the "strawheads" in the country in general)?

Here we once again see the repetition of wisdom being a lesser thing than strength, although it should have been the opposite.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

I would say with renown, but secret renown. But she doesn't do it for renown. Makes any sense?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

I don't know any of the sagas that you mentioned, but I want to pick on that statement. Turin lives with a group. He is physically part of the group. But he is still alone at heart.

Edit: xed with Pitch