Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Guinevere]

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.
But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby! Why couldn't she overcome her foolish pride for the sake of her children?

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

Silence could also be mocking. Keeping quiet sometimes is just as bad as talking. And can you imagine what Morgoth would have done if Hurin didn't say a word?!

For me, this line stands out the most from the chapter:

Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it.

This shows Hurin's insight more than the talk about the Valar.

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

Hmm. Possibly.

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.

Of course she has feelings! What is she, a block of wood? I don't understand why she is viewed so negatively.

But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby!

No, no, no, no, no. No. You don't understand her at all. She is the kind of person that holds pride and honour above all else, even life. If Aerin didn't offer her help, Morwen would have starved to death before she asked anyone for help herself, much less a stranger. And that was a situation of life and death. Going to Doriath was a choice between harsh life and harsh journey but better life as a guest. She would not live her life as a guest, as a beggar. Whatever happens to her, she will not beg.

She is a person with immense willpower. She has high expectations for herself and for others, and her will is what keeps her up, keeps her strong. She is never weak. Her willpower suppresses her deepest feelings (which shows just how much it pained her to send Turin away, since she could not resist the grief). In my opinion, the light in her eyes is a reflection of her inner power.

Morwen is no angel. But I respect and admire her. And I understand her.

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

Disagreed again. I already quoted Melian's words about his character:

Fear both the heat and the cold of your heart.

The coldness comes from Morwen, but the heat from Hurin. Neither is bad by itself - what makes the combination so bad is that Turin doesn't control them.


What do you think of Hurin and Morwen's debate in The Childhood of Turin, when Hurin wants them to flee to Brethil and Morwen to Doriath, and they forebode a tragedy in both? It's puzzling to me that each parent seems to sense only part of their children's story, together foreshadow the story almost in full (except for the Fall of Nargothrond), and yet make it so that both tragedies came true. Not intentionally or knowingly, but........ well, foreshadowing is foreshadowing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, no, no, no, no. No. You don't understand her at all. She is the kind of person that holds pride and honour above all else, even life. If Aerin didn't offer her help, Morwen would have starved to death before she asked anyone for help herself, much less a stranger. And that was a situation of life and death. Going to Doriath was a choice between harsh life and harsh journey but better life as a guest. She would not live her life as a guest, as a beggar. Whatever happens to her, she will not beg.

I've held off commenting here because I think I've made my thoughts on Túrin clear elsewhere.

I'll just say about Morwen that it's notable pride is seldom, if ever, depicted as a desirable trait in Tolkien's Arda. It has a great tendency to lead one to ruin. Just ask Denethor, the Witch-king, Saruman, et al.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What do you think of Hurin and Morwen's debate in The Childhood of Turin, when Hurin wants them to flee to Brethil and Morwen to Doriath, and they forebode a tragedy in both? It's puzzling to me that each parent seems to sense only part of their children's story, together foreshadow the story almost in full (except for the Fall of Nargothrond), and yet make it so that both tragedies came true. Not intentionally or knowingly, but........ well, foreshadowing is foreshadowing.

The precognitive feelings experienced by both Túrin's parents are, I would think, warnings to sent to them by some outside influence. But by whom? Ulmo? Was he trying to tell them to let Túrin stay in Dor-lómin, where he would likely have been taken as a slave? To take the road that seemed less hopeful? And what then? To see Túrin escape, meet up with Elves, and be his messenger to Gondolin? Did Ulmo want Túrin before Tuor? Both were sons of the only Men to ever set foot in Gondolin. That is all speculation, but I still find it intriguing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've held off commenting here because I think I've made my thoughts on Túrin clear elsewhere.

I get the gist; I'm tired of arguing about that one too. But I'm not gonna give up on Morwen so easily

I'll just say about Morwen that it's notable pride is seldom, if ever, depicted as a desirable trait in Tolkien's Arda. It has a great tendency to lead one to ruin. Just ask Denethor, the Witch-king, Saruman, et al.

Well, although most time pride leads to ruin, I would still not be too general about the word "pride". There is "good pride" and "bad pride"***. "Bad pride" is the Saruman e al type: "I am the strongest! Smartest! Sauron is no match for me!" The "good pride" (or better pride?) is more like Morwen's "I will not fall off my moral level". When Turin joined the Gaurwaith in their evil ways I wondered where did his pride go, because he seemed not to care that he was above the level of an orc.



Why do I feel like I'm turning into Urwen?

The precognitive feelings experienced by both Túrin's parents are, I would think, warnings to sent to them by some outside influence. But by whom? Ulmo? Was he trying to tell them to let Túrin stay in Dor-lómin, where he would likely have been taken as a slave? To take the road that seemed less hopeful? And what then? To see Túrin escape, meet up with Elves, and be his messenger to Gondolin? Did Ulmo want Túrin before Tuor? Both were sons of the only Men to ever set foot in Gondolin. That is all speculation, but I still find it intriguing.

That's an interesting idea. But somehow I don't agree with it (big surprise...). I think that it's something internal. It's not the first or the last time that a name resonates for a specific person. But it is curious in any case that Morwen speaks against Brethil and Hurin against Doriath - why doesn't either see both? Perhaps it has something to do with their own fates - not their children's: Morwen died in Brethil and Hurin metaphorically died in Doriath (there he lost all that he had to live for; I don't believe that his specific actual deathplace is known, other than 'the Sea').


***An aside: English doesn't differentiate between the two, but Russian has different words for it, with clear good and bad connotations. It's hard to explain the meaning, but this is what the online dictionary says (though I don't entirely agree with it):

BAD PRIDE: the wish/goal to consider self the only and independant source of good

GOOD PRIDE: self-satisfaction in achieved work; self-esteem; knowledge of self-importance

It's hard to see the difference.... I don't know. I give up on the pride issue.

[Formendacil]

Part of the problem with Túrin's pride--since we're on the subject--is that he is ruled by it, rather than ruling it himself. Normally, this backwards reality of self control is thought of with regards to his fate ("Master of Fate by fate mastered"), but "Master of Pride by pride mastered" would have applied as well--if Túrin had ever claimed the title "Master of Pride" (which would have been ridiculously vain of him if he had anyway...). Perhaps it's just as well that he didn't.

The thing is, Túrin had things to properly be proud of: a great father, a great mother, and skills of his own that, Tolkien certainly indicates, were greater than any (or at least many) of those around him: when the Dragonhelm left Doriath's borders, he was sorely missed; when the outlaws took him in, he was rightly recognized.

The problem for Túrin is that he made no distinctions in his pride about when it was appropriate, when it was not. His challenges to the staid Elf-lords who wanted to avoid battle with Morgoth were not necessarily bad advice--note that Ulmo's message to Turgon was, like Túrin's advice, counter to conventional "Elvenking wisdom."

The problem for Túrin is, of course, his pride. I don't think there's any way one can deny that, and I certainly don't wish too. The thing is, he wasn't without reasons to be proud, and Túrin's pride was *NOT* enough to ensure his downfall: Glaurung had to enspell him at the Fall of Nargothrond to make sure he didn't go after Finduilas (about which, I would say, it is strongly suggested that Túrin would have avoided his fate--which was incest-driven, after all--if he had rescued Finduilas). Notably too, the fate that Glaurung tempts him away from Finduilas with is *not* pride in his neglected Lordship of Dor-Lómin or something similar, but concern for his mother and sister. Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

And, likewise, Morwen. Without adding paragraphs more here, I daresay our judgment of her would be very different if the outcomes had been otherwise, or if we did not know what they would be.

[Galadriel55]

Formy, you said it better that I did!

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

No, I didn't say it was. I said that pride isn't always a bad thing, and that Morwen's pride is understandable.


And yet another note on this topic: between life and honour Morwen always goes for honour. And her honour is closely related to her pride.

[Pitchwife]

For me, the most interesting elaboration in this part of the Narn, compared to the Silmarillion, is the chapter about Túrin's childhood, which helps me understand his character as an adult better. For one, there's his love and mourning for his sister Lalaith, which is but briefly mentioned in the Sil but treated more fully here. Secondly, there's the character of Sador Labadal, who is one of my all-time favourite characters in Tolkien's writings (as I never tire of mentioning), for several reasons.

First, I have a soft spot for well-handled handicapped characters (which is why Bran and Tyrion are among my favourites in ASOIAF [/aside to the initiates]). Second, he's that rare beast, an everyday unheroic mortal Man of the First Age, and gives us a glimpse of how normal Men of that time lived their lives while the likes of Beren and Húrin were busy fighting Morgoth (a theme which will be further elaborated later with the outlaws whom Túrin joins). Third, the interaction and relationship between him and Túrin shows us the more endearing side of Túrin's character, the kindness and pity of which he was capable as a child, although it is all too often overshadowed by his ofermod in his later life. I would reckon these few pages among the finest character-driven writing in Tolkien's works on the Elder Days, along with the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. And I must say that Morwen's disapproval of Túrin's gift of a knife to Sador is one reason why I find it hard to like her.

G55, I sort of see where you're coming from with your defense of Morwen*. She's certainly an interesting character (like e.g. Fëanor and many others, including Túrin himself) - great to have in a story, but not that great to have to live with. The problem with her, as I see it, is not her pride as such, but the fact that in case of doubt, she would put her pride and honour above all other considerations - including the needs of her young son (who missed her sorely in Doriath) and the safety of her unborn babe. Pride as such is OK, but you should know when it's wise to swallow it, and Morwen never did. This at least is one negative trait Túrin seems to have inherited from her.

I like your idea about Morwen=cold and Húrin=heat. Húrin certainly comes across as more warm-hearted (i.e. more generous and affectionate) character, which is why I instinctively find him more sympathetic, but I haven't yet considered that a higher soul-temperature may be just as pernicious if taken to the extreme. Good point.

I also very much like Formy's arguments to the point that nothing in Túrin's character would be enough to ensure all-out tragedy (even in the face of Morgoth's curse?) without Glaurung's additional meddling; but that's matter for chapters to come.
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*(PS. - It turns out I can't rep you at the moment, but consider yourself virtually repped for your posts on this thread; that was well thought and well argued.)