Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[JoltFlame]

It is true that he confronted a greater foe, and died.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

It is true that he confronted a greater foe, and died.

Who? Gandalf or the Witch-king?

[JoltFlame]

Gandalf.

[Inziladun]

If the Balrog was 'greater', why is it that Gandalf was the one who returned, after throwing his enemy down a mountain?
I really don't see the merits of an argument about the WK being superior to Gandalf. The Morgul-lord was a Man fundamentally. Physically and spiritually he had been altered drastically by Sauron, but those changes ultimately diminished him. Gandalf explains the effects of a Ring of Power on a mortal:

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness.'

Perhaps, through the WK's utter submission to the will of Sauron, he was able to 'borrow' some of Sauron's power occasionally, such as the words of 'power and terror' that helped break the Gates of Minas Tirith.
As Tolkien said in one of the Letters, the WK there had been given an added 'demonic force' by being placed in command by Sauron. But even with that additional power, he does not (in the books) rise to Gandalf's challenge, or attempt to ride past him into the City? Why not? Certainly, the Rohirrim had just arrived, and Sauron's forces had a new army to fight. All the same, if the Morgul-lord had gone into the City then, leading his forces, I think they could have taken Minas Tirith.
So why did the Witch-king not do so? He lacked the power. Instead, he runs away and, as Morthoron noted, gets offed by a woman half his size, and a Hobbit probably a quarter his size.

[JoltFlame]

The Lord of the Nazgûl could not be defeated by the hand of a man, Éowyn would have been torn to pieces if it weren't for Merry.

Gandalf is a powerful wizard, yes, but he is still mortal whereas the Leader of the Nine is not.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

The Lord of the Nazgûl could not be defeated by the hand of a man, Éowyn would have been torn to pieces if it weren't for Merry.

So you're saying Gandalf couldn't have defeated the Witch-King, and Éowyn couldn't have done it but for Merry. If we follow this to it's logical conclusion, we'll have to assume Merry is more powerful than Gandalf. Is that really what you're thinking?

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

Gandalf is a powerful wizard, yes, but he is still mortal

I'm not sure about that. He has come back from death (whatever that exactly means in his case), and I think he would have been very very hard to kill a second time, if it was possible at all. Remember what he told the Three Hunters (LotR Book III, The White Rider)?

Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

And this included Andúril, which Isildur had used to cut the Ring from the hand of Sauron himself - so I take it this was more a statement about Gandalf himself, in his resurrected state, than about the quality of their weapons. Or do you think that little flames effect on the Witch-King's sword made that much of a difference?

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

whereas the Leader of the Nine is not.

No, he wasn't mortal any longer in the strict sense of the word - but neither had he gained the immortality he may have hoped for when he accepted the Ring from Sauron. Rather, he had renounced and forfeited both life and death (the Gift of Ilúvatar) for a mere undead shadow of both. So he couldn't die - but he could still be destroyed.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

It is true that he confronted a greater foe, and died.

He defeated the Balrog. His physical manifestation, the body that his spirit was cloaked in, died, but the Maia that was Gandalf did not. The Valar brought him back to finish his task. So do you think the Valar would actually allow him to fall to the WiKi when they did not against the Balrog? Sorry, that makes no sense.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

The Lord of the Nazgûl could not be defeated by the hand of a man, Éowyn would have been torn to pieces if it weren't for Merry..

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

Gandalf is a powerful wizard, yes, but he is still mortal whereas the Leader of the Nine is not.

Was Gandalf 'mortal' after he was ressurrected by the Valar? Could he even be considered a 'man' or was he a different being altogether after being revivified by Valinor? "Gandalf? Yes... that was what they used to call me. Gandalf the Gray. That was my name. I am Gandalf the White." He was now an angelic messenger sent back at "the turning of the tide."

As far as the WitchKing, he fleed like a coward from Glorfindel, and was destroyed by a young maiden and a hobbit. Those are not bullet points to put on one's resume. In fact, there is not a single instance during the War of the Ring where he succeeded in direct confrontation. He wasn't even successful with other Ringwraiths surrounding him.

But really, this is all academic. JoltFlame, what proofs can you provide from the text to support your claim? I have yet to see anything direct and concrete from you regarding your stance, or at least anything that hasn't been discounted as cheap parlor tricks on the part of the WiKi.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Valar brought him back to finish his task.

Just to be perfectly accurate to Tolkien's concept, it was Eru (God) who sent Gandalf back, enhanced in power. I rather doubt that Eru would have bothered to send him back in a state that would be capable of being easily defeated by someone who was, when all is said and done, a thrall of Sauron's, bound to him and the world by a ring of Power. Referring to the resurrected Gandalf, Tolkien said (letter 156) that his wisdom and power were now much greater. If no physical weapon could harm him, as is the clear implication in his remark to Aragorn et al in Fangorn, then what weapon would the Witch King have? Fear? "Magic"? Since in Tolkien's world, magic is

(okay, let's finish what I was typing when the computer went bats...)

derived from the personal power and ability native in the being who wields it. Sauron used his own power in making the Ring powerful, and thus lessened his own strength without it. One can only presume that to some extent, Celebrimbor did the same thing. And it would explain why the Rings could only give power commensurate with the ability of its bearer. Which means that ultimately, the Witch King could never have had ability greater than Gandalf's, because he was natively human, while Gandalf was in reality a Maia, cloaked in a human but not mortal form. Destructible, yes. Mortal, as Men are mortal, no.