Manwë stumbles

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Inziladan

I might take issue with that, as it is said

And again

Interesting quotes, as I was thinking of these passages from The Silm:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethern. . . . Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor.

Manwe is said to be the most noble, but these passages to me mark Melkor as preeminent among the Ainur. Most particular, he was given a share in all the gifts of the Ainur, whereas the others merely had their own gift. Also, while he like Aule wishes to create Beings, Aule keeps his creation secret and does not add it to the theme. Melkor is the only Ainur whose thoughts intrude differently upon the Music.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

But now Iluvatar sad and harkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imaginings that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.

Melkor is the first of the Ainur who is mentioned in the text. In my edition which starts on p. 3, Melkor is first named on p. 4, and no other Ainur is named until p.8.
This is Ulmo. Manwe is named two lines later. Because of this extraordinary attention to just one of the Ainur, I would not, as Ibrîniðilpathânezel has said, see Melkor and Manwe as the twin brothers Nissyen and Efnissyen of the Welsh Mabinogian, two halves of a whole in terms of good and evil, although I agree with her that the Welsh tales carry some interesting 'applications' to Tolkien and are worth considering in any discussion.

Melkor is portrayed as an arrogant intellect, supreme in his confidence and abilities. I have met many very gifted and intelligent people in my life, and very often it is those who have the highest intellectual and imaginative abilities who are the most self-assured of their own desires and wants and who become, as does Melkor, "impatient of it's [the Void's] emptiness", that is to say, impatient of the lesser capabilies of others and their work and ambitious to pursue their own (allegedly) greater vision. Because of this comparison, I often see Melkor's problem as the effect of his own superlative abilities. I think only Melkor among the Ainur has this kind of conceited self-confidence, and, more importantly, impatience.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But are you sure that Eru is not letting the Faithful escape. He could have just as easily let tem get killed.

My point was that the text does not 'go into' Eru's reaction as the bilical text does into Yahweh's reaction. Speaking three times of a convenant--and a covenant with animals as well as people--provides far more of a psychological perspective than does the mere action of allowing the faithful to escape. And the passage I was referring to regarding Abraham's repeated requests to Yahweh to save Sodom if only a few faithful can be found is usually explicated as Abraham's enlightened vision--other tribes automatically assume that the evilness of the sinful affects the good as well, thus jusitfying the loss of all lives. Here, Abraham's intervention is regarded as one of the first steps in a developing new ethic or moral vision. We don't get any kind of explict statement of this regarding Numenor. We can imagine Iluvatar being regretful, but that is interpretation, as there is no textual evidence for it. That's all I meant. Iluvatar is given lines to speak early in the Ainulindale, but not in the the Akallabeth at the conclusion.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

To me, it seems that when they made Numenor for the Edain, the Valar didn't understand the nature of jealousy. A gift that brings one too close to what they cannot have, and thus reminds them of what they cannot -- indeed, are forbidden to -- have, isn't much of a gift at all, IMHO; sooner or later, someone thus "rewarded" is going to think that it's not a reward, and become jealous and angry. Why the Valar didn't foresee this possibility (probability?) has long puzzled me.

This question can be asked of Eru as well. Why did he not know know how Melkor's greater gifts would effect him? Why did he know know how Men would feel about the Gift of Death, particularly with deathless elves around? And why would he not know how elves would become so careless of life and engage in such killing fields?

Of course, what parent can truly realise who his or her child is? A unique creation is, ultimately, unknowable to the creator.