Boromir, Faramir, and the Blood of Numenor. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Túroch · 12-03-2002, 12:20 PM

Okay, I haven't read RotK in about 2 years so i'll post this question in the Novice forum. In RotK Gandalf makes some remark about Faramir having the some of the old Numenorian blood because of his valiant character. Could Boromir of had some of Numenor's blood as well? I know that he was corrupted by the ring but he still escaped the ring's hold in the end. In my book that speaks of great character. Denethor certinally had no such strength so the brothers must of got it from their mother. Who was Boromir's and Faramir's mother anywho. Could she be desended from ancient Numenorians?

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 12:36 PM

what makes you so shure that denethor didnt have the blood of numenor of corse he did it run threw the vains of most of the great familys of gondor he strove agains the dark lord for a long time threw the palantiri that took great strength

the phantom · 12-03-2002, 01:29 PM

Actually, I recall in the books that Gandalf said of Denethor "The blood of Numenor runs true in him, as it does in Faramir, his son" or something to that effect. Denethor did have a lot of power and nobility. Boromir supposedly had less, which is evident by his love for battle and less love for songs and lore. He inherited great physical prowess, bravery, and was taught to be a man of his word, but wasn't up to Numenorian standards in power of will and in wisdom.

Their mother, I think I'm remembering correctly, died when she was young, and I believe she was named after Orodreth's daughter, Finduilas. I'm fairly certain she was from Dol Amroth, meaning she was indeed of high blood.

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 03:06 PM

i dont think many men of the 3rd age could live up to numenorean standards but you must remember that the kingdoms of gondor and arnor where founded by the surviveing faithful numenoriens i think umbar also was under the rule of what remaind of the kings men of numenor or black numenoreans they all had numenorean blood

Manwe Sulimo · 12-03-2002, 03:09 PM

Punctuation, Mr. Witch-king, punctuation.

Quote:

'He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best....'

Gandalf, talking about Denethor.

the phantom · 12-03-2002, 03:44 PM

Thanks Manwe Sulimo. That was the statement I was trying to quote.

Also, anyone with their books handy want to check the info I gave on the mother? I'm not at home to check.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: the phantom ]

Manwe Sulimo · 12-03-2002, 04:44 PM

Quote:

He had married late (2976), taking as wife Finduilas, daughter of Adrahil of Dol Amroth. She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart, but before twelve years had passed she died. Denethor loved her, in his fashion, more dearly than any other, unless it were the elder of the sons that she bore him. But it seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror, and she turned her eyes ever south to the sea that she missed.

Adrahil is mentioned no other place, but it seems logical that he was in a noble position (following the linguistics of Imrahil's family). Therefore, Finduilas probably had some Elvish blood as well as Númenórean blood.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 06:24 PM

Runs NEARLY true in him, i think thats the word we should look at

Orual · 12-03-2002, 09:01 PM

I'm not quite sure what that quote means by "the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him" but not in Boromir. Is it talking about his nobility in character? Because surely it isn't talking about his actual lineage, or Faramir and Boromir would be perfectly equal, being brothers.

But I agree with Turoch that in the end, Boromir had more strength than Denethor. I don't know what Denethor did in his life, but in looking at the way they died I think that Boromir showed better character. He died protecting Merry and Pippin, redeeming himself for his attack on Frodo. Denethor decided to end his life on his own terms. I'm a bit of a Boromir fan, and I think that had Boromir been in that position, without the Ring tempting him, he probably would've fought on either to his death or till his defeat, and then probably to his death anyway.

Finiel · 12-07-2002, 07:13 AM

Finduilas did have some Elvish blood in her veins because she's from Dol Amroth. Because Elves settled in Dol Amroth before going to the sea and mixed with the men of Dol Amroth.
Finduilas came from a noble family because her brother was Imrahil the Prince of Dol Amroth.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Errand-Rider Karigan · 12-07-2002, 09:02 AM

I'm quite new here, but I was directed to this message by a friend on another message board and thought I'd put in a good word about Denethor, Boromir, and Finduilas (the family of the last ruling steward being of my personal interest).

Denethor, if you did not know, had the love of his father (Ecthelion II) stolen from him by a man calling himself Thorongil, who is actually Aragorn. In addition to this, the wife he loved was taken from him when she was still young, his eldest and most beloved son was gone, and his youngest son was near death. And Minas Tirith appeared to be falling to those who would only ruin her.

Controlling his own death was simply Denethor's way of exerting his right not to be controlled. It is quite Numenorian; rather then die at the hands of the enemy, he would rather perish in a last testimony to prove that he can, after all, control his own fate. He is not to be pitied- after all, death did not frighten him- seeing his city fall did. This is part of the "near true" Numenorian Gandalf mentions- fierce pride, determination, and a desire to control his own destiny.

Boromir shares his father's spirit; what does he fear the most? The falling of the White City. As can be made clear through "The Departure of Boromir" in The Two Towers, he wants nothing more then for Minas Tirith and Gondor to be kept safe. His failure was not in trying to take the ring from Frodo, but from dying, and therefore being unable to keep Mordor at bay, to hinder the enemy. Boromir is very Numenorian in some ways; he has the spirit, pride and temper of Numenor, though not the sight or wisdom.

Faramir is very different from either his father or his brother. He is more like his mother in temperment. Finduilas was apparently quite gentle and understanding. This probably comes from her elvish blood, though high Numenor flowed in her veins as well. Though he has the gift of sight, being able to percieve motives, he simply does not have the spirit of Numenor; there is not fierce pride in his veins, nor the Numenorian ambition. Yes, he has a gift of Numenor, but not the temper, pride, ambition, fierceness, or stubborness of Numenor, which his brother and father both display. Only the wisdom.

Think on this line from the Council of Elrond (book verse); "Believe not in the land of Gondor the blood of Nuemnor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten." As is evident by the conduct of both Boromir and Denethor, the pride remains. We can see clearly that dignity too remains, as well as the temper and fire. And yes, perhaps even the wisdom.

Manwe Sulimo · 12-07-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

It is quite Numenorian; rather then die at the hands of the enemy, he would rather perish in a last testimony to prove that he can, after all, control his own fate.

That isn't Númenórean. The original Númenóreans acknowledged that they could not control their own fate (since they did not know where they went when they died), and did not try to avoid death by the enemy to "control his own fate."

Not even the ones who wanted to do this could succeed. Ar-Pharazôn himself never decided his own fate; he was trapped by the Valar and still awaits his judgment.

As for Faramir lacking Númenórean pride and the like, I refer you to the quote I cited earlier in this thread. Denethor and Faramir had Númenórean blood; Boromir did not. I doubt anyone can understand this, but that doesn't stop us from trying.

Quote:

'It reminds me of Númenor,' said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
'Of Númenor?' said Éowyn.
'Yes,' said Faramir, 'of the land of Westernesse that foundered, and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.'

Diamond18 · 12-07-2002, 11:35 AM

I'm with Orual...I don't really understand why Denethor and Faramir would have Númenórean blood but Boromir would not. Maybe he didn't inherete all the qualities of a Númenórean, but I never really understood all Tolkien's "blood" talk. If not Númenórean blood, what was flowing in Boromir's veins and where could he have gotten any other blood than what his father had?

I of course know that relations can be very different from each other. My personality and my brother's are as different as day and night, but we both have German/Polish blood flowing through our veins!

Am I being too literal? Is all this "Númenórean blood" talk just symbolic?

Manwe Sulimo · 12-07-2002, 01:48 PM

Methinks it is just symbolic...or it could be the unearthings of a scandolous affair between Finduilas and some guy in Gondor....

12-03-2002, 12:20 PM	#1
Túroch Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Oklahoma State University Posts: 102	Boromir, Faramir, and the Blood of Numenor. Okay, I haven't read RotK in about 2 years so i'll post this question in the Novice forum. In RotK Gandalf makes some remark about Faramir having the some of the old Numenorian blood because of his valiant character. Could Boromir of had some of Numenor's blood as well? I know that he was corrupted by the ring but he still escaped the ring's hold in the end. In my book that speaks of great character. Denethor certinally had no such strength so the brothers must of got it from their mother. Who was Boromir's and Faramir's mother anywho. Could she be desended from ancient Numenorians? __________________ For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which thay had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness." Ulmo - Lord of waters

12-03-2002, 12:36 PM	#2
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	what makes you so shure that denethor didnt have the blood of numenor of corse he did it run threw the vains of most of the great familys of gondor he strove agains the dark lord for a long time threw the palantiri that took great strength __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 01:29 PM	#3
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Actually, I recall in the books that Gandalf said of Denethor "The blood of Numenor runs true in him, as it does in Faramir, his son" or something to that effect. Denethor did have a lot of power and nobility. Boromir supposedly had less, which is evident by his love for battle and less love for songs and lore. He inherited great physical prowess, bravery, and was taught to be a man of his word, but wasn't up to Numenorian standards in power of will and in wisdom. Their mother, I think I'm remembering correctly, died when she was young, and I believe she was named after Orodreth's daughter, Finduilas. I'm fairly certain she was from Dol Amroth, meaning she was indeed of high blood. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-03-2002, 03:06 PM	#4
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	i dont think many men of the 3rd age could live up to numenorean standards but you must remember that the kingdoms of gondor and arnor where founded by the surviveing faithful numenoriens i think umbar also was under the rule of what remaind of the kings men of numenor or black numenoreans they all had numenorean blood __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 03:44 PM	#6
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Thanks Manwe Sulimo. That was the statement I was trying to quote. Also, anyone with their books handy want to check the info I gave on the mother? I'm not at home to check. [ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: the phantom ] __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

12-03-2002, 06:24 PM	#8
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Runs NEARLY true in him, i think thats the word we should look at __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 09:01 PM	#9
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	I'm not quite sure what that quote means by "the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him" but not in Boromir. Is it talking about his nobility in character? Because surely it isn't talking about his actual lineage, or Faramir and Boromir would be perfectly equal, being brothers. But I agree with Turoch that in the end, Boromir had more strength than Denethor. I don't know what Denethor did in his life, but in looking at the way they died I think that Boromir showed better character. He died protecting Merry and Pippin, redeeming himself for his attack on Frodo. Denethor decided to end his life on his own terms. I'm a bit of a Boromir fan, and I think that had Boromir been in that position, without the Ring tempting him, he probably would've fought on either to his death or till his defeat, and then probably to his death anyway. __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

12-07-2002, 07:13 AM	#10
Finiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: somewhere in the tropics Posts: 69	Finduilas did have some Elvish blood in her veins because she's from Dol Amroth. Because Elves settled in Dol Amroth before going to the sea and mixed with the men of Dol Amroth. Finduilas came from a noble family because her brother was Imrahil the Prince of Dol Amroth. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "The night has a thousand eyes, And the day but one; Yet the light of a bright world dies when day is done. The mind has a thousand eyes, And the heart but one; Yet the light of a whole life dies when love is done."-- F.W. Bourdillon

12-07-2002, 09:02 AM	#11
Errand-Rider Karigan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Minas Tirith, Gondor Posts: 11	I'm quite new here, but I was directed to this message by a friend on another message board and thought I'd put in a good word about Denethor, Boromir, and Finduilas (the family of the last ruling steward being of my personal interest). Denethor, if you did not know, had the love of his father (Ecthelion II) stolen from him by a man calling himself Thorongil, who is actually Aragorn. In addition to this, the wife he loved was taken from him when she was still young, his eldest and most beloved son was gone, and his youngest son was near death. And Minas Tirith appeared to be falling to those who would only ruin her. Controlling his own death was simply Denethor's way of exerting his right not to be controlled. It is quite Numenorian; rather then die at the hands of the enemy, he would rather perish in a last testimony to prove that he can, after all, control his own fate. He is not to be pitied- after all, death did not frighten him- seeing his city fall did. This is part of the "near true" Numenorian Gandalf mentions- fierce pride, determination, and a desire to control his own destiny. Boromir shares his father's spirit; what does he fear the most? The falling of the White City. As can be made clear through "The Departure of Boromir" in The Two Towers, he wants nothing more then for Minas Tirith and Gondor to be kept safe. His failure was not in trying to take the ring from Frodo, but from dying, and therefore being unable to keep Mordor at bay, to hinder the enemy. Boromir is very Numenorian in some ways; he has the spirit, pride and temper of Numenor, though not the sight or wisdom. Faramir is very different from either his father or his brother. He is more like his mother in temperment. Finduilas was apparently quite gentle and understanding. This probably comes from her elvish blood, though high Numenor flowed in her veins as well. Though he has the gift of sight, being able to percieve motives, he simply does not have the spirit of Numenor; there is not fierce pride in his veins, nor the Numenorian ambition. Yes, he has a gift of Numenor, but not the temper, pride, ambition, fierceness, or stubborness of Numenor, which his brother and father both display. Only the wisdom. Think on this line from the Council of Elrond (book verse); "Believe not in the land of Gondor the blood of Nuemnor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten." As is evident by the conduct of both Boromir and Denethor, the pride remains. We can see clearly that dignity too remains, as well as the temper and fire. And yes, perhaps even the wisdom. __________________ "How is a man to judge what to do in such times?" "As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear."

12-07-2002, 11:35 AM	#13
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I'm with Orual...I don't really understand why Denethor and Faramir would have Númenórean blood but Boromir would not. Maybe he didn't inherete all the qualities of a Númenórean, but I never really understood all Tolkien's "blood" talk. If not Númenórean blood, what was flowing in Boromir's veins and where could he have gotten any other blood than what his father had? I of course know that relations can be very different from each other. My personality and my brother's are as different as day and night, but we both have German/Polish blood flowing through our veins! Am I being too literal? Is all this "Númenórean blood" talk just symbolic? __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-07-2002, 01:48 PM	#14
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Methinks it is just symbolic...or it could be the unearthings of a scandolous affair between Finduilas and some guy in Gondor.... __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."