Boromir, Faramir, and the Blood of Numenor.
 

Okay, I haven't read RotK in about 2 years so i'll post this question in the Novice forum. In RotK Gandalf makes some remark about Faramir having the some of the old Numenorian blood because of his valiant character. Could Boromir of had some of Numenor's blood as well? I know that he was corrupted by the ring but he still escaped the ring's hold in the end. In my book that speaks of great character. Denethor certinally had no such strength so the brothers must of got it from their mother. Who was Boromir's and Faramir's mother anywho. Could she be desended from ancient Numenorians?

what makes you so shure that denethor didnt have the blood of numenor of corse he did it run threw the vains of most of the great familys of gondor he strove agains the dark lord for a long time threw the palantiri that took great strength

Actually, I recall in the books that Gandalf said of Denethor "The blood of Numenor runs true in him, as it does in Faramir, his son" or something to that effect. Denethor did have a lot of power and nobility. Boromir supposedly had less, which is evident by his love for battle and less love for songs and lore. He inherited great physical prowess, bravery, and was taught to be a man of his word, but wasn't up to Numenorian standards in power of will and in wisdom.

Their mother, I think I'm remembering correctly, died when she was young, and I believe she was named after Orodreth's daughter, Finduilas. I'm fairly certain she was from Dol Amroth, meaning she was indeed of high blood.

i dont think many men of the 3rd age could live up to numenorean standards but you must remember that the kingdoms of gondor and arnor where founded by the surviveing faithful numenoriens i think umbar also was under the rule of what remaind of the kings men of numenor or black numenoreans they all had numenorean blood

Punctuation, Mr. Witch-king, punctuation.

Gandalf, talking about Denethor.

Thanks Manwe Sulimo. That was the statement I was trying to quote.

Also, anyone with their books handy want to check the info I gave on the mother? I'm not at home to check.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: the phantom ]

Adrahil is mentioned no other place, but it seems logical that he was in a noble position (following the linguistics of Imrahil's family). Therefore, Finduilas probably had some Elvish blood as well as Númenórean blood.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Manwe Sulimo ]

Runs NEARLY true in him, i think thats the word we should look at

I'm not quite sure what that quote means by "the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him" but not in Boromir. Is it talking about his nobility in character? Because surely it isn't talking about his actual lineage, or Faramir and Boromir would be perfectly equal, being brothers.

But I agree with Turoch that in the end, Boromir had more strength than Denethor. I don't know what Denethor did in his life, but in looking at the way they died I think that Boromir showed better character. He died protecting Merry and Pippin, redeeming himself for his attack on Frodo. Denethor decided to end his life on his own terms. I'm a bit of a Boromir fan, and I think that had Boromir been in that position, without the Ring tempting him, he probably would've fought on either to his death or till his defeat, and then probably to his death anyway.

Finduilas did have some Elvish blood in her veins because she's from Dol Amroth. Because Elves settled in Dol Amroth before going to the sea and mixed with the men of Dol Amroth.
Finduilas came from a noble family because her brother was Imrahil the Prince of Dol Amroth.

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I'm quite new here, but I was directed to this message by a friend on another message board and thought I'd put in a good word about Denethor, Boromir, and Finduilas (the family of the last ruling steward being of my personal interest).

Denethor, if you did not know, had the love of his father (Ecthelion II) stolen from him by a man calling himself Thorongil, who is actually Aragorn. In addition to this, the wife he loved was taken from him when she was still young, his eldest and most beloved son was gone, and his youngest son was near death. And Minas Tirith appeared to be falling to those who would only ruin her.

Controlling his own death was simply Denethor's way of exerting his right not to be controlled. It is quite Numenorian; rather then die at the hands of the enemy, he would rather perish in a last testimony to prove that he can, after all, control his own fate. He is not to be pitied- after all, death did not frighten him- seeing his city fall did. This is part of the "near true" Numenorian Gandalf mentions- fierce pride, determination, and a desire to control his own destiny.

Boromir shares his father's spirit; what does he fear the most? The falling of the White City. As can be made clear through "The Departure of Boromir" in The Two Towers, he wants nothing more then for Minas Tirith and Gondor to be kept safe. His failure was not in trying to take the ring from Frodo, but from dying, and therefore being unable to keep Mordor at bay, to hinder the enemy. Boromir is very Numenorian in some ways; he has the spirit, pride and temper of Numenor, though not the sight or wisdom.

Faramir is very different from either his father or his brother. He is more like his mother in temperment. Finduilas was apparently quite gentle and understanding. This probably comes from her elvish blood, though high Numenor flowed in her veins as well. Though he has the gift of sight, being able to percieve motives, he simply does not have the spirit of Numenor; there is not fierce pride in his veins, nor the Numenorian ambition. Yes, he has a gift of Numenor, but not the temper, pride, ambition, fierceness, or stubborness of Numenor, which his brother and father both display. Only the wisdom.

Think on this line from the Council of Elrond (book verse); "Believe not in the land of Gondor the blood of Nuemnor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten." As is evident by the conduct of both Boromir and Denethor, the pride remains. We can see clearly that dignity too remains, as well as the temper and fire. And yes, perhaps even the wisdom.

That isn't Númenórean. The original Númenóreans acknowledged that they could not control their own fate (since they did not know where they went when they died), and did not try to avoid death by the enemy to "control his own fate."

Not even the ones who wanted to do this could succeed. Ar-Pharazôn himself never decided his own fate; he was trapped by the Valar and still awaits his judgment.

As for Faramir lacking Númenórean pride and the like, I refer you to the quote I cited earlier in this thread. Denethor and Faramir had Númenórean blood; Boromir did not. I doubt anyone can understand this, but that doesn't stop us from trying.

I'm with Orual...I don't really understand why Denethor and Faramir would have Númenórean blood but Boromir would not. Maybe he didn't inherete all the qualities of a Númenórean, but I never really understood all Tolkien's "blood" talk. If not Númenórean blood, what was flowing in Boromir's veins and where could he have gotten any other blood than what his father had?

I of course know that relations can be very different from each other. My personality and my brother's are as different as day and night, but we both have German/Polish blood flowing through our veins!

Am I being too literal? Is all this "Númenórean blood" talk just symbolic?

Methinks it is just symbolic...or it could be the unearthings of a scandolous affair between Finduilas and some guy in Gondor....