Timeline of the Great Rings

[Arvegil145]

By the way:

3262 - Sauron taken captive to Numenor. [App.B] He seemingly leaves the One in Barad-dur. [Ak]

There is a letter (Letter 211, p. 279) where Tolkien outright states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

There is a peculiar 1:2:4 pattern to many things Dwarven related (i.e. 1 - Durin's Folk, 2 - Firebeards and Broadbeams, 4 - eastern Dwarves; 1 - Khazad-dum, 2 - Nogrod and Belegost, 4 - presumably other eastern mansions), and I'm about 60% certain that the two rings that Sauron captured before TA 2845 belonged to the leaders of the 2 westernmost clans, and that the 4 which were devoured by dragons belonged to the leaders of the 4 eastern clans.

I can't exactly prove it, but knowing Tolkien's sensibilities at least somewhat I'd say it isn't the most unreasonable assumption in the world.

I just have to point out that the Longbeards aren't really a "unique clan" in and of themselves (excepting Durin) - instead, it's a collection of some members of the other 6 clans that coalesced around Khazad-dum.

With that in mind, I imagine that practically everybody belonging to Durin's Folk had kinship with all other Dwarven clans, which could also imply regular or semi-regular contact. In fact, given how uniform Khuzdul is, I'd say it's all but certain.

All of this is very plausible, but not proven by the text. Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that? Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

There is a letter (Letter 211, p. 279) where Tolkien outright states that Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor:

Good catch! I've edited that in.

My big question of the day: when did Gandalf find out about Bilbo's Ring? He tells Frodo:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Past

It was in the year that the White Council drove the Dark Power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he "won" it, and I could not believe it.

But I haven't been able to pin down when Gandalf found out. Bilbo revealed his Ring to the Dwarves in Mirkwood, and lied to them about how he got it, after Gandalf had already left. He isn't stated to use it in Gandalf's presence at any point during the remainder of The Hobbit, and given his reluctance to mention it to the Dwarves even at the point of disaster, I'm not convinced he would have just randomly shared it. Certainly Gandalf never mentions it.

Was the "shadow on his heart" after Gandalf heard about the Ring, or when Bilbo found it? I don't think the text is clear, and Gandalf feeling ominous from being in the presence of the One even without realising it is plausible. If the "shadow" came before he knew Bilbo had any ring at all, it's entirely possible that he never heard a thing about it until he read Bilbo's book, during or after his visit with Balin, seven years after Bilbo returned to the Shire.

Or maybe (hopefully!) there's a reference that gives a firm date.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

All of this is very plausible, but not proven by the text. Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that? Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

Of course it's speculation - if it weren't everyone and their grandmother would be flooding in with quotes.

However, I take issue with you pointing out the 9 (Men) and the 3 (Elves) in contrast to the 7 - simply put:

1) in regards to the Mannish 9 there really is no equivalent to the Dwarven '7 symbology' - Men are so diverse in their modes of life that there couldn't be an equivalent (unless the number 9 had a special significance in regards to the Awakening of Men or something)

2) in regards to Elves - the original bearer (and maker) of the 3 was Celebrimbor (a Noldo): he then gave the three to Galadriel and Gil-galad (both of them being Noldor) - it was only afterwards that Elrond and Cirdan/Gandalf inherited Vilya and Narya, respectively


Basically, the number 7 is connected to the Dwarves in a way that no other number (except maybe 12 and its square 144 in regards to Elves) is connected to any other race.

[Findegil]

Basically, the number 7 is connected to the Dwarves in a way that no other number (except maybe 12 and its square 144 in regards to Elves) is connected to any other race.

I disagree to this: There are 3 Elves that awake first as there are 7 fathers of the Dwarves. The 3 Elves are the first leaders of the 3 Clans as the 7 fathers of the Dwraves are the first leadres of the 7 Houses.
What more similarity could you wish for?

Even if you argue that the elves soon split into more significant groups (Eldar/Avari), still the split between Nulukizdin and Khazad has some similarity.

So the argument could be used rather the other way around: Since Sauron does know the number of the Rings (and probably influenced it) and is aware of the symbolic connection of the Elves with 3 and the Dwarves with 7, we might assume that there was a similar connection between Men and 9.
Since Sauron could not force his will through with the 3 Rings, he dedicated to the ELves, it is insignificant that they did not found their way into the hands of representatives of the 3 Elven-Clans. And it is rather significant that 3 of the 9 were given into numenorean hands: The Numenoreans were at that time the best representatives of the 3 Edain-Houses.

Under these assumptions we could gues that beside the 3 Edain-Houses we would find in the early history of Men 6 farther Houses. And for one of these 6 farther Houses we could assume a connection to Khamul, the Black Easterling.

Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: This does not mean that the Dwarves of Moria could not held more than 1 Dwarven Ring. Even in the choosen group of Thorin's companions not all were members of the House of Durin, so they all were descended from Dwarves of Moria (see the footnote to The Line of the Dwarves of Erebor in Appendix A to LotR. And as already said, the Dwarves of Moria were beside the House of Durin a mixture of all the other houses. So after the sinking of Beleriand and the decline of the Mansions in the Ered Luin, it could well be that the best candidates for Sauron to represent the Firebeards and the Broadbeams in reciving one of the 7 Rings would be found in Moria.

[Snowdog]

This is qute an interesting read! Good work with the thorough researching the Rings Huinesoron!

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is there a source for the 7 Rings to 7 Clans in 7 Mansions connection we all seem to make, or did we just guess that?

I don't think it's ever stated in the writings; I think it's just a somewhat logical assumption many (most?) make in our head-canon.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Neither the Three nor the Nine are evenly spread among their respective peoples - two of the Three are held by heirs of the Noldor, and three of the Nine went to Numenoreans. Several in one house of the Dwarves is entirely possible.

In reference to the nine, we also know that one Easterling, Khamûl, had one of the nine and was 2nd in command of the Nazgûl after the Witch King of Angmar. Any guesses who got the other five? I know this is reaching into the realm of fan-cic, but it is fun and interesting to speculate.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

This is qute an interesting read! Good work with the thorough researching the Rings Huinesoron!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

In reference to the nine, we also know that one Easterling, Khamûl, had one of the nine and was 2nd in command of the Nazgûl after the Witch King of Angmar. Any guesses who got the other five? I know this is reaching into the realm of fan-cic, but it is fun and interesting to speculate.

Okay, let's have a play.

The speculation so far is that the three Numenoreans represented the three Houses of the Edain. We know from Aldarion and Erendis that the Beorians retained a separate racial identity for at least 800 years after Numenor was founded, so it's not impossible.

I would guess that the Hadorian Nazgul is someone close to the royal house of Numenor. Tar-Telperiën the long-lived is my usual guess, but if you want another named character, her brother Isilmo is a good bet: embittered by his sister's claim on the sceptre that "should be his". This is probably the Witch-King(/Queen).

The Beorian Nazgul is an interesting one: based on Aldarion and Erendis, the Beorians are known to have lived in the west of Numenor - but the lords of that region were Hadorians, the heirs of Silmarien. At least, the lords of Andunie were - could the Beorian be a lord or princeling of Eldalonde, the other elf-haven of Numenor? In A & E, the elven-birds are said to have flown westwards from Erendis' house in Mittalmar to her parents' home, which suggests they lived some ways south of Andunie.

As for the Haladin Nazgul, there's not really anything to go on. The Haladin were basically wiped out (there's a statement that their tongue wasn't spoken in later years), but we can imagine one of the 'arms' of Numenor had a Haladin descendent population. If Sauron had already picked up a King's Man and a Faithful (to use the later terminology), perhaps the third was from Hyarrostar - the forests that built Numenor's fleets, and a likely place for the heirs of the Woodsmen of Brethil to live.

Moving back to Middle-earth, is it too much to assume 3 Nazgul from the west, 3 from the east? We know of peoples related to the Haladin (the Dunlendings, Bree-men, Oathbreakers, and all the rest of the pre-Numenoreans) and the Hadorians (the Northmen/future Rohirrim). Could there be a "pre-Beorian" presence somewhere to round out the set? I wonder about Dale - the Northmen there seem to have a different mode of living to the Rohirrim, and are said to have come up from the south. Was there a "pre-Beorian" splinter group living near the Sea of Rhun - perhaps even the mysterious Dorwinion?

If we've come this far, we might as well finish: the three eastern Nazgul also represented the three houses of Men. We know so little of the East, but there are two named "kingdoms" - Rhun and Khand (where the Variags live). There are also the Wainriders of the Third Age, who came from further east and allied with the Variags.

Khamul is "the Easterling", so he may be from the furthest east - he's the Wainrider Nazgul. I would place him as the Hadorian - the Wainriders are mobile like the Rohirrim, and as the largest of the houses would presumably have stayed closer to their origin.

Of the other two, the Rhunish Nazgul is the "Beorian". We know the Beorians were a splinter of Hador; if that split happened around Rhun, then the Rhun and Dorwinion groups could have actually been the same people initially. They would have split later, into eastern and western parties, but it's possible the Rhun and Dorwinion Nazgul had some contact even before Sauron came to them.

And then there's the Variag Nazgul, who's the Haladin on no more basis than that the Haladin-related peoples tend to live further south. The Haradrim, Druedain, and Hobbits all get left out of the ring-giving party for various reasons (the Druedain are too sensible, the Hobbits too secretive, and I dunno, maybe Sauron was just racist).

Parsing that all across to the real world map, and looking back to the post-Roman era because it lets me say "Goth":

- One European Celt (pre-Numenorean).
- One Goth (Northman).
- One Vandal (Dorwinion).
- One Rus' (Rhun).
- One Persian (Khand).
- One Hun (Wainrider, Khamul).
- ... and three from lands that don't exist. You can call them Irish (Hadorian), Welsh (Haladin), and Scottish (Beorian) Celts if you want.

hS

[Findegil]

I disagree to this "Dunedain focused" fiew! I agree that we know not enough of the eastern houses to be sure on anything.

But my idea would be that if the Numenorean RIng bearers represent the three Houses of the Edain, the remains of these Houses in Middle-Earth shouldn't get a Ring. That would be like Dúrin holding one Rings and the Comander of the mines in the Iron Hills get a nother one so he is remote a Cousin of Durin. (If he comes from an other House, he might get it)

If this theory should hiold any water it has to be more absolute: The Ringbearers must not all be Kings, but they are high ranking members of the society they life in. Saurons plan, at least, was to control these societies by controlling their leaders by means of the Rings. That plan failed in all cases (at least in the long run, as fare as we know). So the motive to include all houses of a race would be the idea of the ringbearer becoming with the help of and the driven by the ring the uncontested leader of that house. In the Numenorean cases that would include the Middle-earth branches of the same house (at the time Sauron distributed the Rings, that was not unthinkable, and we could assume that the changing from friendly and beneficial visitors to wealth seeking opressors was in part initiated by the influence of the Rings on the Numenorean bearers).

Now for the 3 Numenorean bears I have nothing to add to Huinesoron's through analysis. But for the other 6 I doubt any connection farther connection to the three Houses of the Edain. I would rather look to the Houses of the Easterlings: Ulfdor and Bor. So we can not know if Khamul had any connection to these Houses. If not I would rather think 3 for the western Houses (Edain => Nomenorians), three for the Easterlings, and three for the Southeners.

Now that leaves out the Hobbits and the Drûg, but I am not much concerned about that. They seemed to considered like side brenches of Men kind, like to the Petty Dwarves.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I would guess that the Hadorian Nazgul is someone close to the royal house of Numenor. Tar-Telperiën the long-lived is my usual guess, but if you want another named character, her brother Isilmo is a good bet: embittered by his sister's claim on the sceptre that "should be his". This is probably the Witch-King(/Queen).

I've seen the 'Isilmo might be the Witch-King' idea before, but personally I never bought into the idea that anyone on the House of Elros family tree (at least those who are named) turned into Nazgul, not because there were no individuals on it who were rotten enough but because none of them really fit the timeline or geography.

For example, you might argue that Isilmo, on his death's door, decided to take up one of the Nine...but...Sauron didn't visit Numenor until he was brought there by Pharazon; and I doubt the very elderly Isilmo would be making voyages to Middle-earth - and even if he did, why would Sauron entrust one of the Nine to someone who either:

1) will soon be dead anyway, and therefore completely useless to him

or

2) would have his life extended via one of the Nine, but in turn could probably never return to Numenor and cause chaos there since everyone would be incredibly suspicious of a 400 year old individual suddenly regaining his vigor and then potentially living for a few hundred years more!


Which leads me to my problem with the rest of your post - why would Sauron seek out some obscure remnant of, say, the Haladin (who were all but gone at this point in every relevant way) if his goal was to pick out influential figures across Numenor and Middle-earth?

After all, that was the entire point of him giving away the Great Rings in the first place!

With that said, the 3 Numenorean Nazgul were IMO all colonists.

...or maybe the Witch-king was Tal-elmar . (I'm only c. 80% joking here actually.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But my idea would be that if the Numenorean RIng bearers represent the three Houses of the Edain, the remains of these Houses in Middle-Earth shouldn't get a Ring. That would be like Dúrin holding one Rings and the Comander of the mines in the Iron Hills get a nother one so he is remote a Cousin of Durin. (If he comes from an other House, he might get it)

This was in my mind also, but I ignored it. I was treating the Three Houses as like the Three Tribes of the Eldar: everyone was kin to the Haladin or the Hadorians, with the Beorians as a weird spinoff of pre-Hador. But that's really not supported by the text.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Now for the 3 Numenorean bears I have nothing to add to Huinesoron's through analysis. But for the other 6 I doubt any connection farther connection to the three Houses of the Edain. I would rather look to the Houses of the Easterlings: Ulfdor and Bor. So we can not know if Khamul had any connection to these Houses. If not I would rather think 3 for the western Houses (Edain => Nomenorians), three for the Easterlings, and three for the Southeners.

Your mention of Uldor and Bor sent me on an investigation of them, and I think there might be something there... I'll come back to that.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

For example, you might argue that Isilmo, on his death's door, decided to take up one of the Nine...but...Sauron didn't visit Numenor until he was brought there by Pharazon; and I doubt the very elderly Isilmo would be making voyages to Middle-earth - and even if he did, why would Sauron entrust one of the Nine to someone who either:

Yeah okay, I got his dates wrong. My bad, I thought there was more overlap.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Which leads me to my problem with the rest of your post - why would Sauron seek out some obscure remnant of, say, the Haladin (who were all but gone at this point in every relevant way) if his goal was to pick out influential figures across Numenor and Middle-earth?

After all, that was the entire point of him giving away the Great Rings in the first place!

With that said, the 3 Numenorean Nazgul were IMO all colonists.

I took the "3 Numenoreans = 3 Edain houses" from Findegil and ran with it; I think a prince, a high lord, and the master shipwright wouldn't be implausible as Sauron's picks. But you're right that they would need to be over in Middle-earth to be actually given the rings, which two of those... wouldn't be.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

...or maybe the Witch-king was Tal-elmar . (I'm only c. 80% joking here actually.)

Okay so this occured to me independently earlier today. Let's go with it! Tal-Elmar must have lived post-1869, when the Numenoreans switched from teaching to conquest; and he lived "on an estuary of Isen", per Tolkien's notes.

- Tal-Elmar is the Witch-King. He obviously discovers his Numenorean heritage: Elmar his grandmother was a Hadorian, from an offshoot of the royal house. He winds up as Lord of Lond Daer, and is also proclaimed King of Agar as heir to his father. (This explains the crown Frodo sees, which must have been his in life to have faded with him.) He's a perfect target for Sauron, who he already served by inheritance and culture. But why Lord of Lond Daer? Because it lets me do this:

- The second Numenorean is the Lord of Umbar, which I think is in place by this point. He's presumably the Haladin Nazgul, if we're still doing that, because:

- The third is the Lord of Pelargir, or Edhellond, or Dol Amroth, or wherever the Numenorean settlement about Anduin was at this point. He's a Beoring, one of what will later become known as the Faithful.

Sauron's goal is to subvert the Numenorean presence in Middle-earth. He succeeds admirably with Tal-Elmar, basically removing Lond Daer as a source of attack. The other two aren't as successful.

So what about the Easterlings of the First Age? Akallabeth tells us that the survivors of the "evil Men" became kings in the "unharvested lands" back east, ruling over wandering folk who had obeyed neither Morgoth nor the Valar. Could this be the north of Eriador (the obvious place for them to flee)? Could it be possible that:

- The Nazgul of Ulfang's house was a ruler in what would later become Angmar. If there were people there, Sauron would want them, because it gives him a good angle to threaten Imladris.

Meanwhile, the Grey Annals tell us that the people of Bor were the ancestors of "the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age". It looks like the Haladin pre-Numenoreans migrated "as far north as the Barrow-Downs", so could the Borians have been the group that first built the Barrows? This would have been a people broadly friendly to the Elves, so Sauron would like to take control of them.

- The Nazgul of Bor's house was a lord somewhere in future Cardolan or Arthedain.

And while we're here:

- Khamul was the easternmost Nazgul. His people were the ancestors of the Wainriders, which is why Sauron was able to move them so far to come attack Gondor later.

That leaves three. Khand, Rhun, and (near) Harad? If Sauron's purpose is to build an alliance against Numenor, then probably: those are the lands he would want to draw on. This probably makes Khamul the original least-important Nazgul; his people were just a fallback plan, in case something happened that meant Sauron had to retreat east. It was only once, well, something happened, that Khamul became Sauron's most important asset: the immortal sorcerer-king of a vast people who his enemies didn't even know existed. That's why his name is remembered: because it was actually in continuous use in his far-eastern dominions.

This is all still very very fanfic, but I think it's fun. ^_^

hS

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron, this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19224 ) goes a bit deeper into the whole 'Tal-Elmar' text, and what the latest versions of it are like + some earlier but non-contradictory statements: such as the fact that Tolkien imagined Tal-elmar journeying to Rhovanion and the Sea of Rhun at some point.