Timeline of the Great Rings

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

This is qute an interesting read! Good work with the thorough researching the Rings Huinesoron!

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

In reference to the nine, we also know that one Easterling, Khamûl, had one of the nine and was 2nd in command of the Nazgûl after the Witch King of Angmar. Any guesses who got the other five? I know this is reaching into the realm of fan-cic, but it is fun and interesting to speculate.

Okay, let's have a play.

The speculation so far is that the three Numenoreans represented the three Houses of the Edain. We know from Aldarion and Erendis that the Beorians retained a separate racial identity for at least 800 years after Numenor was founded, so it's not impossible.

I would guess that the Hadorian Nazgul is someone close to the royal house of Numenor. Tar-Telperiën the long-lived is my usual guess, but if you want another named character, her brother Isilmo is a good bet: embittered by his sister's claim on the sceptre that "should be his". This is probably the Witch-King(/Queen).

The Beorian Nazgul is an interesting one: based on Aldarion and Erendis, the Beorians are known to have lived in the west of Numenor - but the lords of that region were Hadorians, the heirs of Silmarien. At least, the lords of Andunie were - could the Beorian be a lord or princeling of Eldalonde, the other elf-haven of Numenor? In A & E, the elven-birds are said to have flown westwards from Erendis' house in Mittalmar to her parents' home, which suggests they lived some ways south of Andunie.

As for the Haladin Nazgul, there's not really anything to go on. The Haladin were basically wiped out (there's a statement that their tongue wasn't spoken in later years), but we can imagine one of the 'arms' of Numenor had a Haladin descendent population. If Sauron had already picked up a King's Man and a Faithful (to use the later terminology), perhaps the third was from Hyarrostar - the forests that built Numenor's fleets, and a likely place for the heirs of the Woodsmen of Brethil to live.

Moving back to Middle-earth, is it too much to assume 3 Nazgul from the west, 3 from the east? We know of peoples related to the Haladin (the Dunlendings, Bree-men, Oathbreakers, and all the rest of the pre-Numenoreans) and the Hadorians (the Northmen/future Rohirrim). Could there be a "pre-Beorian" presence somewhere to round out the set? I wonder about Dale - the Northmen there seem to have a different mode of living to the Rohirrim, and are said to have come up from the south. Was there a "pre-Beorian" splinter group living near the Sea of Rhun - perhaps even the mysterious Dorwinion?

If we've come this far, we might as well finish: the three eastern Nazgul also represented the three houses of Men. We know so little of the East, but there are two named "kingdoms" - Rhun and Khand (where the Variags live). There are also the Wainriders of the Third Age, who came from further east and allied with the Variags.

Khamul is "the Easterling", so he may be from the furthest east - he's the Wainrider Nazgul. I would place him as the Hadorian - the Wainriders are mobile like the Rohirrim, and as the largest of the houses would presumably have stayed closer to their origin.

Of the other two, the Rhunish Nazgul is the "Beorian". We know the Beorians were a splinter of Hador; if that split happened around Rhun, then the Rhun and Dorwinion groups could have actually been the same people initially. They would have split later, into eastern and western parties, but it's possible the Rhun and Dorwinion Nazgul had some contact even before Sauron came to them.

And then there's the Variag Nazgul, who's the Haladin on no more basis than that the Haladin-related peoples tend to live further south. The Haradrim, Druedain, and Hobbits all get left out of the ring-giving party for various reasons (the Druedain are too sensible, the Hobbits too secretive, and I dunno, maybe Sauron was just racist).

Parsing that all across to the real world map, and looking back to the post-Roman era because it lets me say "Goth":

- One European Celt (pre-Numenorean).
- One Goth (Northman).
- One Vandal (Dorwinion).
- One Rus' (Rhun).
- One Persian (Khand).
- One Hun (Wainrider, Khamul).
- ... and three from lands that don't exist. You can call them Irish (Hadorian), Welsh (Haladin), and Scottish (Beorian) Celts if you want.

hS

[Findegil]

I disagree to this "Dunedain focused" fiew! I agree that we know not enough of the eastern houses to be sure on anything.

But my idea would be that if the Numenorean RIng bearers represent the three Houses of the Edain, the remains of these Houses in Middle-Earth shouldn't get a Ring. That would be like Dúrin holding one Rings and the Comander of the mines in the Iron Hills get a nother one so he is remote a Cousin of Durin. (If he comes from an other House, he might get it)

If this theory should hiold any water it has to be more absolute: The Ringbearers must not all be Kings, but they are high ranking members of the society they life in. Saurons plan, at least, was to control these societies by controlling their leaders by means of the Rings. That plan failed in all cases (at least in the long run, as fare as we know). So the motive to include all houses of a race would be the idea of the ringbearer becoming with the help of and the driven by the ring the uncontested leader of that house. In the Numenorean cases that would include the Middle-earth branches of the same house (at the time Sauron distributed the Rings, that was not unthinkable, and we could assume that the changing from friendly and beneficial visitors to wealth seeking opressors was in part initiated by the influence of the Rings on the Numenorean bearers).

Now for the 3 Numenorean bears I have nothing to add to Huinesoron's through analysis. But for the other 6 I doubt any connection farther connection to the three Houses of the Edain. I would rather look to the Houses of the Easterlings: Ulfdor and Bor. So we can not know if Khamul had any connection to these Houses. If not I would rather think 3 for the western Houses (Edain => Nomenorians), three for the Easterlings, and three for the Southeners.

Now that leaves out the Hobbits and the Drûg, but I am not much concerned about that. They seemed to considered like side brenches of Men kind, like to the Petty Dwarves.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I would guess that the Hadorian Nazgul is someone close to the royal house of Numenor. Tar-Telperiën the long-lived is my usual guess, but if you want another named character, her brother Isilmo is a good bet: embittered by his sister's claim on the sceptre that "should be his". This is probably the Witch-King(/Queen).

I've seen the 'Isilmo might be the Witch-King' idea before, but personally I never bought into the idea that anyone on the House of Elros family tree (at least those who are named) turned into Nazgul, not because there were no individuals on it who were rotten enough but because none of them really fit the timeline or geography.

For example, you might argue that Isilmo, on his death's door, decided to take up one of the Nine...but...Sauron didn't visit Numenor until he was brought there by Pharazon; and I doubt the very elderly Isilmo would be making voyages to Middle-earth - and even if he did, why would Sauron entrust one of the Nine to someone who either:

1) will soon be dead anyway, and therefore completely useless to him

or

2) would have his life extended via one of the Nine, but in turn could probably never return to Numenor and cause chaos there since everyone would be incredibly suspicious of a 400 year old individual suddenly regaining his vigor and then potentially living for a few hundred years more!


Which leads me to my problem with the rest of your post - why would Sauron seek out some obscure remnant of, say, the Haladin (who were all but gone at this point in every relevant way) if his goal was to pick out influential figures across Numenor and Middle-earth?

After all, that was the entire point of him giving away the Great Rings in the first place!

With that said, the 3 Numenorean Nazgul were IMO all colonists.

...or maybe the Witch-king was Tal-elmar . (I'm only c. 80% joking here actually.)

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Findegil

But my idea would be that if the Numenorean RIng bearers represent the three Houses of the Edain, the remains of these Houses in Middle-Earth shouldn't get a Ring. That would be like Dúrin holding one Rings and the Comander of the mines in the Iron Hills get a nother one so he is remote a Cousin of Durin. (If he comes from an other House, he might get it)

This was in my mind also, but I ignored it. I was treating the Three Houses as like the Three Tribes of the Eldar: everyone was kin to the Haladin or the Hadorians, with the Beorians as a weird spinoff of pre-Hador. But that's really not supported by the text.

Originally Posted by Findegil

Now for the 3 Numenorean bears I have nothing to add to Huinesoron's through analysis. But for the other 6 I doubt any connection farther connection to the three Houses of the Edain. I would rather look to the Houses of the Easterlings: Ulfdor and Bor. So we can not know if Khamul had any connection to these Houses. If not I would rather think 3 for the western Houses (Edain => Nomenorians), three for the Easterlings, and three for the Southeners.

Your mention of Uldor and Bor sent me on an investigation of them, and I think there might be something there... I'll come back to that.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

For example, you might argue that Isilmo, on his death's door, decided to take up one of the Nine...but...Sauron didn't visit Numenor until he was brought there by Pharazon; and I doubt the very elderly Isilmo would be making voyages to Middle-earth - and even if he did, why would Sauron entrust one of the Nine to someone who either:

Yeah okay, I got his dates wrong. My bad, I thought there was more overlap.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Which leads me to my problem with the rest of your post - why would Sauron seek out some obscure remnant of, say, the Haladin (who were all but gone at this point in every relevant way) if his goal was to pick out influential figures across Numenor and Middle-earth?

After all, that was the entire point of him giving away the Great Rings in the first place!

With that said, the 3 Numenorean Nazgul were IMO all colonists.

I took the "3 Numenoreans = 3 Edain houses" from Findegil and ran with it; I think a prince, a high lord, and the master shipwright wouldn't be implausible as Sauron's picks. But you're right that they would need to be over in Middle-earth to be actually given the rings, which two of those... wouldn't be.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

...or maybe the Witch-king was Tal-elmar . (I'm only c. 80% joking here actually.)

Okay so this occured to me independently earlier today. Let's go with it! Tal-Elmar must have lived post-1869, when the Numenoreans switched from teaching to conquest; and he lived "on an estuary of Isen", per Tolkien's notes.

- Tal-Elmar is the Witch-King. He obviously discovers his Numenorean heritage: Elmar his grandmother was a Hadorian, from an offshoot of the royal house. He winds up as Lord of Lond Daer, and is also proclaimed King of Agar as heir to his father. (This explains the crown Frodo sees, which must have been his in life to have faded with him.) He's a perfect target for Sauron, who he already served by inheritance and culture. But why Lord of Lond Daer? Because it lets me do this:

- The second Numenorean is the Lord of Umbar, which I think is in place by this point. He's presumably the Haladin Nazgul, if we're still doing that, because:

- The third is the Lord of Pelargir, or Edhellond, or Dol Amroth, or wherever the Numenorean settlement about Anduin was at this point. He's a Beoring, one of what will later become known as the Faithful.

Sauron's goal is to subvert the Numenorean presence in Middle-earth. He succeeds admirably with Tal-Elmar, basically removing Lond Daer as a source of attack. The other two aren't as successful.

So what about the Easterlings of the First Age? Akallabeth tells us that the survivors of the "evil Men" became kings in the "unharvested lands" back east, ruling over wandering folk who had obeyed neither Morgoth nor the Valar. Could this be the north of Eriador (the obvious place for them to flee)? Could it be possible that:

- The Nazgul of Ulfang's house was a ruler in what would later become Angmar. If there were people there, Sauron would want them, because it gives him a good angle to threaten Imladris.

Meanwhile, the Grey Annals tell us that the people of Bor were the ancestors of "the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age". It looks like the Haladin pre-Numenoreans migrated "as far north as the Barrow-Downs", so could the Borians have been the group that first built the Barrows? This would have been a people broadly friendly to the Elves, so Sauron would like to take control of them.

- The Nazgul of Bor's house was a lord somewhere in future Cardolan or Arthedain.

And while we're here:

- Khamul was the easternmost Nazgul. His people were the ancestors of the Wainriders, which is why Sauron was able to move them so far to come attack Gondor later.

That leaves three. Khand, Rhun, and (near) Harad? If Sauron's purpose is to build an alliance against Numenor, then probably: those are the lands he would want to draw on. This probably makes Khamul the original least-important Nazgul; his people were just a fallback plan, in case something happened that meant Sauron had to retreat east. It was only once, well, something happened, that Khamul became Sauron's most important asset: the immortal sorcerer-king of a vast people who his enemies didn't even know existed. That's why his name is remembered: because it was actually in continuous use in his far-eastern dominions.

This is all still very very fanfic, but I think it's fun. ^_^

hS

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron, this post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19224 ) goes a bit deeper into the whole 'Tal-Elmar' text, and what the latest versions of it are like + some earlier but non-contradictory statements: such as the fact that Tolkien imagined Tal-elmar journeying to Rhovanion and the Sea of Rhun at some point.

[Arvegil145]

Also, there's this quote by Elmar talking to Buldar (her...eh...non-consentual would-be-husband):

"If here I must dwell, then dwell I must, as one whose body is in this place at thy will, but my thought far elsewhere. And this vengeance I will have, that while my body is kept here in exile, the lot of all this folk shall worsen, and thine most; but when my body goes to the alien earth, and my thought is free of it, then in thy kin one shall arise who is mine alone. And with his arising shall come the end of thy people and the downfall of your king."

- PoME, 'Tal-Elmar', p. 425


This is clearly a reference to Tal-elmar, but I'm not sure what it means - or what Tolkien intended to do with it. I think "your king"-part refers to Sauron though.



Also, the final version of the story takes place, in all likelihood, somewhere at or around Pinnath Gelin I think.