Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I still have reservations about the whole '3 ages of the imprisonment of Melkor' - perhaps you could convert the 2874.6 figure (in the AAm) into something similar but more duodecimal - let's say 2,880 SY years (20 x 144).

Or otherwise - you could simply keep the whole 144 x 15 (i.e. 2,160 years) idea...I don't know.

Yes, you could do any of those things. "Three Ages" is the only one for which there are multiple sources tied to it (the AAm entry for his release, and the GA entry for Luthien's birth), so I have used it as the version with the "most evidence". It also gives the best Beleriand dates ("best dates" being the same logic I used for the Finwean calculations). Out of curiousity, here's where the three versions fall in the timeline, with the Unchaining fixed to the death of the Trees:

• 1153 - "Heresy" among the Quendi.
• 1681 - Chaining of Melkor ('duodecimal AAm' = 2880 SY)
• 1686 - Chaining of Melkor ('AAm' = 2875 SY)
• 1778 - Awakening of Men.
• 2016 - Finding of the Quendi.
• 2232 - Great March begins.
• 2373 - Vanyar and Noldor pass Greenwood after Orome drives out Sauron's evils, and settle east of Anduin in Atyamar.
• 2401 - Chaining of Melkor ('3 Ages' = 15 VY = 2160 SY)
• 2426 - Teleri begin to arrive in Atyamar, having come around the southern end of Greenwood.
• 2652 - The March is over.
• 2808 - Noldor and Vanyar arrive in Aman.
• 2833 - Chaining of Melkor ('3 Ages' = 12 VY = 1728 SY)
• 3084 - Teleri under Olwe depart Beleriand.
• 4561 - Release of Melkor

Using the AAm date definitely doesn't work, falling before even the Finding. The choice between 15 VY or 12 VY can be based on two things:

1. Per VI.B. "the rescue of the Quendi must be … before the assault upon Utumno". How far away do the Quendi need to be before the Valar will risk assaulting Melkor? Is "beyond the Greenwood" far enough? Equally, would they really wait more than 1 VY after the Quendi reached Beleriand to start the attack?

2. Tinuviel, Tinuviel. 12 VY puts her birth in 3409, as on the Timeline; 15 VY pushes it back to 2880, which is 223 SY before Elwe awakens.

I think the combination of the direct statement from VI.B, and the calculations from Luthien, make 2833 the best date for the Chaining. If you wind up creating your own timeline, you can weight the evidence differently; all it affects is the Fall of Utumno and the Beleriand dates.

Bonus calculation: per AAm, the war with Utumno lasted 11 "VY" (at 9.58 SY): a running battle 1090-92, the siege from 1092-1099, and the Chaining in 1100. If that timeline is maintained, then the war begins 105 SY before the Chaining. If the Chaining is 2401 (15 VY), then the war starts in 2296 while the Quendi are in Rhun; if the Chaining is in 2833, the war starts in 2728, one SY off from half a VY after "All the Eldar of the main host are in Beleriand".

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Also! I thought that you would shave off 144 SY from the timeline - so that the timeline would end in c. 5,930 or so.

XVII.2 gives the years between the Finding and the death of the Trees. I adjusted to match that.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

If you're going to remove Celeborn because he's problematic, you really ought to remove Galadriel, Celebrimbor, Gil-galad (though he doesn't feature in the timeline), etc.

The issues with Celeborn and Galadriel are completely different. Celeborn - whoever he's related to - is dated once, with a big "at least" and a huge "if this calculation is correct (it probably isn't)". Since we've thrown out the 3100 SY, there's no basis left to his birthdate. Galadriel, meanwhile, has too many sources; I list three on the Timeline and I think we've discussed others.

Celebrimbor the Sinda is hilarious, because it doesn't fit with anything else - Daeron has no wife and an infatuation with Luthien, so this Celebrimbor would have to be born in the Second Age, so can't be a descendent of Feanor or a resident of Gondolin. You already convinced me to drop that one.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

There's no 'Almaren stuff' in the revised timeline, since the whole 'Two Lamps' and the consequences of their destruction aren't a part of it.

They're not mentioned in any post-AAm/GA source, no. Neither are the birthdates of the descendents of Finwe, the building of Menegroth, or frankly most of the stuff we're putting in here. Given that the Valar were building domes to grow trees in because the Sun just wasn't shiny enough for them, I'd need a solid source saying there weren't Lamps before I'd say they never existed.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

According to the latest version of the legendarium, Men awoke after the Dwarves - the whole "awaking after the Children of Iluvatar" makes zero sense unless the Ents awoke after Men.

You see why I'm leaving the Ents out. The sources disagree too strongly.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

BTW, @Huinesoron, what do you think about the idea of creating a post (recorded)-Fourth Age timeline?

There is, to my surprise, actually some meat to the basic skeleton that Tolkien mentioned in his '1960 of the 7th Age' comment - it most certainly wouldn't be a simple repetition of the dates of the SA and TA.

Though I suppose that 'meat' might be significantly cut down if one were to exclude the 'Notion Club Papers'...

Honestly, I agree that a Grand Unified Timeline of all the Ages of Arda, from the arrival of the Valar to the release of Rings of Power Season 2, would be both amazing and hilarious. But having seen how complicated it is just for this piece of the First Age, I'm not sure I could handle it!

For one thing, the latest source on "how long ago was this" is NoME 1.VI (the "1960 of the 7th Age" text), which adds 3000 years to the usual "6000 years" version, contradicts the astronomy in LotR, and aligns best with stuff from the Lost Road era. And let's not even ask how long the Valar were in Arda before the creation of the Trees!

(3500 AAm VY, but that's about a fifth of the time between the creation of the Trees and the Awakening of the Quendi. You'd probably want to either treat the pre-Trees stuff as 144SY years, making it 504 000 SY, or keep the ratio of 3500:1000 for Beginning-Trees:Trees-Awakening, which makes it about 428 000 SY.)

hS

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Honestly, I agree that a Grand Unified Timeline of all the Ages of Arda, from the arrival of the Valar to the release of Rings of Power Season 2, would be both amazing and hilarious. But having seen how complicated it is just for this piece of the First Age, I'm not sure I could handle it!

Lies, lies, lies. Of course I went ahead and did it.

The Unified Tolkien Timeline runs from the entry of the Valar into Arda, through to the discovery of the Notion Club Papers. It's not complete - I've skipped the bulk of the Grey Annals and Tale of Years (2nd-4th ages), and the Lost Road material from the 7th Age is missing - but it gets the outlines in place.

I've used the current Late Timeline in its entirety, and drawn on the Ages discussion. As we're using latest sources, the question of how long ago this all was is simple: Bel. 310 is 16 000 years before 1960 CE. I've used the 2700-year Fourth Age from the Ages thread, and put the end of the Fifth Age at the end of the 4.2-kiloyear event; the dates pretty much line up, though it looks like our own Age must be coming to an end...

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The issues with Celeborn and Galadriel are completely different. Celeborn - whoever he's related to - is dated once, with a big "at least" and a huge "if this calculation is correct (it probably isn't)". Since we've thrown out the 3100 SY, there's no basis left to his birthdate. Galadriel, meanwhile, has too many sources; I list three on the Timeline and I think we've discussed others.

Celebrimbor the Sinda is hilarious, because it doesn't fit with anything else - Daeron has no wife and an infatuation with Luthien, so this Celebrimbor would have to be born in the Second Age, so can't be a descendent of Feanor or a resident of Gondolin. You already convinced me to drop that one.

Did we threw away the 3,100 years idea?

As to Celebrimbor, descendant of Daeron, I have no comments other than one - maybe you shouldn't treat that which Tolkien wrote last as scripture. (Not saying you do - but anyway...)

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

They're not mentioned in any post-AAm/GA source, no. Neither are the birthdates of the descendents of Finwe, the building of Menegroth, or frankly most of the stuff we're putting in here. Given that the Valar were building domes to grow trees in because the Sun just wasn't shiny enough for them, I'd need a solid source saying there weren't Lamps before I'd say they never existed.

Other than being very conspicuously absent from c. late '50s to Tolkien's death in 1973?

All else is fanfiction in the worst way possible.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

For one thing, the latest source on "how long ago was this" is NoME 1.VI (the "1960 of the 7th Age" text), which adds 3000 years to the usual "6000 years" version, contradicts the astronomy in LotR, and aligns best with stuff from the Lost Road era. And let's not even ask how long the Valar were in Arda before the creation of the Trees!

If I'm being honest, I don't give a toss about 'strange astronomy!' - is this really going to be the crux of all this stuff? Unless you're an astronomer, I can't see why anyone would give a single damn about the intricacies of this stuff.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Did we threw away the 3,100 years idea?

There are 3264 years from the arrival to the end of the Age. That's far enough off that I can't honestly say it matches the 3100 XVIII statement, especially since that quote says it was probably wrong.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Other than being very conspicuously absent from c. late '50s to Tolkien's death in 1973?

I feel like there were lots of things not written about by Tolkien post-AAm/GA; that doesn't mean they were discarded. The Lamps were always something of an afterthought to the Trees; it's entirely possible Tolkien was simply waiting until he had the "round-world Trees" story straightened out before bothering to think about the Lamps.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

If I'm being honest, I don't give a toss about 'strange astronomy!' - is this really going to be the crux of all this stuff? Unless you're an astronomer, I can't see why anyone would give a single damn about the intricacies of this stuff.

I mean, Tolkien devoted whole calendars to the phases of the moon, it's entirely possible the seasonal rising of Orion and how it changes over millennia was also on his mind. However, in my view the later explicit 16 000 years quote trumps any possible unrecorded workings on that score.

Not sure if you missed it, but I did put together a bare-bones Unified Timeline, from the entry of the Valar into Arda to the discovery of the Notion Club Papers.

hS

[Arvegil145]

First of, I have to apologize for my tone in the above post - I haven't slept for two days and for some reason decided to post here. Not that any of that is an excuse.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I feel like there were lots of things not written about by Tolkien post-AAm/GA; that doesn't mean they were discarded. The Lamps were always something of an afterthought to the Trees; it's entirely possible Tolkien was simply waiting until he had the "round-world Trees" story straightened out before bothering to think about the Lamps.

My biggest problem with the Lamps post-'Round World legendarium' (other than their complete absence) is their necessity.

There was a clear purpose behind them in the 'Flat World legendarium' - they were the original light source on Arda back then: however, since the Sun existed from the beginning in Tolkien's later framework, there is obviously no need for a light source other than the Sun, except in the sense of said light containing the 'light of Iluvatar' that originally was contained within the Sun.

That is where the Two Trees come into focus - their role in the RW legendarium isn't that of a light source per se, but as a last vestige of that 'holy' light, which later on is in turn only preserved in the silmarils.

Problem is, the Trees were never intended to be the original source of light illuminating the whole world, even in the earliest legendarium - the Lamps filled that purpose in the pre-RW legendarium. But then, Tolkien changed his mind and made the Sun into the original source of light instead (assuming the same role that the Lamps had previously), with the Trees being created much later to preserve the 'holy' light which the Sun originally had.

In other words, from a story-telling perspective, the Sun replaced the Lamps in its primary role as the original main source of light on Arda (or Ambar in the RW version).

Or to put it this way:

1) 'Flat World legendarium': Lamps > Trees > Sun and Moon/Silmarils

2) 'Round World legendarium' (concerning the carriers of the 'holy' light): Sun > Trees > Silmarils

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I mean, Tolkien devoted whole calendars to the phases of the moon, it's entirely possible the seasonal rising of Orion and how it changes over millennia was also on his mind. However, in my view the later explicit 16 000 years quote trumps any possible unrecorded workings on that score.

Not sure if you missed it, but I did put together a bare-bones Unified Timeline, from the entry of the Valar into Arda to the discovery of the Notion Club Papers.

Yeah, I was being embarrassingly flippant about the whole situation regarding 'astronomy'.


In regards to your timeline, I missed it - I'll check it out.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

First of, I have to apologize for my tone in the above post - I haven't slept for two days and for some reason decided to post here. Not that any of that is an excuse.

It's not a problem. You came across as abrupt but not angry. Hopefully you've managed to sleep now?

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

My biggest problem with the Lamps post-'Round World legendarium' (other than their complete absence) is their necessity.

There was a clear purpose behind them in the 'Flat World legendarium' - they were the original light source on Arda back then: however, since the Sun existed from the beginning in Tolkien's later framework, there is obviously no need for a light source other than the Sun, except in the sense of said light containing the 'light of Iluvatar' that originally was contained within the Sun.

Interesting... I went back and looked at the BoLT version, and the course of the "light of Iluvatar" is even more complex: it starts with light as a sort of floating liquid that is gathered into the Lamps and then regathered into the cauldrons Kulullin and Silindrin, before the Trees ever sprout.

Your mention of the Sun no longer having its "holy" light in the Round World conception makes me think of the BoLT "rekindling of the Magic Sun", in which the Sun was originally strongly magical but was defiled by Melko (who may or may not have killed its pilot). Obviously the idea that the Eldar could restore the power of the Sun by sailing Eressea over to Europe and fighting Germans didn't come back, but it seems like Tolkien returned to at least some of this. Do you know what he decided had reduced the "holiness" of the Sun in the Round World model?

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's not a problem. You came across as abrupt but not angry. Hopefully you've managed to sleep now?

I wasn't angry as such, but I definitely was a prick, so an apology is the least I could do.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Interesting... I went back and looked at the BoLT version, and the course of the "light of Iluvatar" is even more complex: it starts with light as a sort of floating liquid that is gathered into the Lamps and then regathered into the cauldrons Kulullin and Silindrin, before the Trees ever sprout.

Your mention of the Sun no longer having its "holy" light in the Round World conception makes me think of the BoLT "rekindling of the Magic Sun", in which the Sun was originally strongly magical but was defiled by Melko (who may or may not have killed its pilot). Obviously the idea that the Eldar could restore the power of the Sun by sailing Eressea over to Europe and fighting Germans didn't come back, but it seems like Tolkien returned to at least some of this. Do you know what he decided had reduced the "holiness" of the Sun in the Round World model?

I mean, assuming that Tolkien kept in his head through the years what he wrote in the 'Myths Transformed', the (original) Sun was effectively...assaulted...out of existence by Melkor:

But Melkor, as hath been told, lusted after all light, desiring it jealously for his own. Moreover he soon perceived that in Âs there was a light that had been concealed from him, and which had a power of which he had not thought. Therefore, afire at once with desire and anger, he went to Asa, and he spoke to Árië, saying: 'I have chosen thee, and thou shalt be my spouse, even as Varda is to Manwë, and together we shall wield all splendour and mastery. Then the kingship of Arda shall be mine in deed as in right, and thou shalt be the partner of my glory.' But Árië rejected Melkor and rebuked him, saying: 'Speak not of right, which thou hast long forgotten. Neither for thee nor by thee alone was Eä made; and thou shalt not be King of Arda. Beware therefore; for there is in the heart of Âs a light in which thou hast no part, and a fire which will not serve thee. Put not out thy hand to it. For though thy potency may destroy it, it will burn thee and thy brightness will be made dark.'

Melkor did not heed her warning, but cried in his wrath: 'The gift which is withheld I take!' and he ravished Árië, desiring both to abase her and to take into himself her powers. Then the spirit of Árië went up like a flame of anguish and wrath, and departed for ever from Arda; and the Sun was bereft of the Light of Varda, and was stained by the assault of Melkor. And being for a long while without rule it flamed with excessive heat or grew too cool, so that grievous hurt was done to Arda and the fashioning of the world was marred and delayed, until with long toil the Valar made a new order. But even as Árië foretold, Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it.

- MR, 'Myths Transformed', Text II, pp. 380-1

[Arvegil145]

@Huinesoron

Do you have any new insights on the subject, or otherwise any changes you'd make to your timeline?

Just looking for an update (if there's any).