Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I'm aware that the table dates from the end of 1959, but I could've sworn that there's another place which dates the Elmo-Galadhon-Celeborn family tree to the late '60s, but my brain isn't cooperating...

I keep thinking that too, but now I am wondering if it might be this:
"On the second of these late additions to the typescript, the birth of Eldún and Elrún in the year 500, see pp. 257 and 300, note 16."

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Given that the GA date to the early '50s, and the 1.XXII dates from c. 1958, I'd bet that the latter is more relevant.

I think GA2 postdates XXII, specifically:

Originally Posted by CT's comment to GA paragraphs 25-29

In GA1 the whole passage given here in the annals 1300-50 and 1330 is placed under 1320... In a note to the year 1320 on the typescript of AAm my father added: 'The Orcs first appear in Beleriand'l in GA2 the event is dated ten Valian years later, in 1330.

So 1330 is the later date.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

And in regards to the imprisonment of Melkor - I think you're focusing on the wrong thing: you can simply, like I said before, anchor the early dates to the NoME (YT 1133 as the arrival of Elves to Aman, in accordance with YT 1132 in the GA when they left Beleriand).

We can do this very easily, anchoring off the Late Timeline's date for Olwe's departure, and it doesn't really work:

• GA 1150 - LT 3237 - Olwe departs.
• GA 1152 - LT 3256 - Elwe awakes.
• GA 1200 - LT 3716 - Luthien born.
• GA 1250 - LT 4195 - Dwarves arrive
• GA 1300 - LT 4674 - Menegroth built.
• GA 1330 - LT 4961 - Orcs enter Beleriand.
• GA 1350 - LT 5153 - Coming of Denethor.
• [GA 1495] - LT 5473 - Death of the Trees.

The GA entry for 1350 says "Of the long years of peace that followed after the coming of Denethor there is little tale". In this timeline, those "long years" are less than 2.5 Valian Years, when GA would have them be almost 10 VY! The "long years of peace" end up starting after Feanor already made the Silmarils. My proposal at least gives them 4VY, which is something. So I think anchoring Beleriand to the AAm claim that the Dwarves entered Beleriand in the same year that Feanor made the Tengwar is more reasonable.

Luthien is actually completely separate to that question, but as Turin said to Orodreth, we really do have to think about Morgoth:

Originally Posted by Grey Annals 2

It is not known to any among Elves or Men when Luthien, only child of Elwe and Melian, came into the World, fairest of all the Children of Iluvatar that were or shall be. But it is held that it was at the end of the first [of three] age of the Chaining of Melkor...

And a 12VY Chaining fits! It fits with Luthien's place in the timeline, it fits with the assertion that the March occured before the fall of Utumno:

Originally Posted by VI.B

It seems clear that the rescue of the Quendi must be secret (as far as possible) and before the assault upon Utumno - otherwise this very peril ["involv[ing] the Children in misery or destruction"] would have occurred. The Great March must occur behind a screen of investment, and before any violent assault had begun.

And it fits with the quote you found regarding the Fall of Men:

Originally Posted by Of Dwarves and Men

The Atani and their kin were the descendants of peoples who in the Dark Ages had resisted Morgoth or had renounced him, and had wandered ever westward from their homes far away in the East seeking the Great Sea...

Set against that is one assertion, also from VI.B:

Originally Posted by VI.B

With regard to Men... the arising and fall took place during the "Captivity of Melkor", and was achieved not by Melkor in person, but by Sauron. It occured about 100 VY after the "Awakening of the Quendi"... if Men arose in VY 1100... the "Finding" should evidently be about VY 1090...

Which, if we take the actual figure of 10VY between the Finding and the "arising and fall", means the latter would sit in 3600, just about a thousand years before the (approximate) separation of the Hadorians and Beorians.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

EDIT: I think you can constrain the births of Cirdan and Eol.

I think Cirdan is confirmed somewhere to have been born by Cuivienen. We could probably put a note about Eol on the relevant entry (looks like it's 2931); it's not like we know how he's related to Elwe anyway, so missing that out won't be too hard.

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I keep thinking that too, but now I am wondering if it might be this:
"On the second of these late additions to the typescript, the birth of Eldún and Elrún in the year 500, see pp. 257 and 300, note 16."

300 note 16 points back to the same genealogical tables. 257 places Elrun and Eldun in the Wanderings of Hurin. I'm starting to think Nimloth herself literally only appears once, let alone her relationship to any other Sindar!

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think GA2 postdates XXII, specifically:



So 1330 is the later date.

I consulted Hammond and Scull's 'Chronology', and all the references to the GA are within c. 1951-2 range.

But perhaps you're right, though Tolkien might've reverted back to the GA1 in the NoME excerpt of the AAm.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

We can do this very easily, anchoring off the Late Timeline's date for Olwe's departure, and it doesn't really work:

• GA 1150 - LT 3237 - Olwe departs.
• GA 1152 - LT 3256 - Elwe awakes.
• GA 1200 - LT 3716 - Luthien born.
• GA 1250 - LT 4195 - Dwarves arrive
• GA 1300 - LT 4674 - Menegroth built.
• GA 1330 - LT 4961 - Orcs enter Beleriand.
• GA 1350 - LT 5153 - Coming of Denethor.
• [GA 1495] - LT 5473 - Death of the Trees.

The GA entry for 1350 says "Of the long years of peace that followed after the coming of Denethor there is little tale". In this timeline, those "long years" are less than 2.5 Valian Years, when GA would have them be almost 10 VY! The "long years of peace" end up starting after Feanor already made the Silmarils. My proposal at least gives them 4VY, which is something. So I think anchoring Beleriand to the AAm claim that the Dwarves entered Beleriand in the same year that Feanor made the Tengwar is more reasonable.

Luthien is actually completely separate to that question, but as Turin said to Orodreth, we really do have to think about Morgoth:



And a 12VY Chaining fits! It fits with Luthien's place in the timeline, it fits with the assertion that the March occured before the fall of Utumno:



And it fits with the quote you found regarding the Fall of Men:



Set against that is one assertion, also from VI.B:



Which, if we take the actual figure of 10VY between the Finding and the "arising and fall", means the latter would sit in 3600, just about a thousand years before the (approximate) separation of the Hadorians and Beorians.

I'm not sure if the 'long years of peace after the coming of Denethor' should be taken as gospel...

But my biggest problem is that the '3 ages of Melkor's imprisonment' in the revised timeline is essentially made up - if anything I'd keep the 300 VY=c. 2,875 SY figure. But that would mean that Melkor is only released in c. FA 5276!

One thing that always bothered me is that Melkor doesn't start making a mess of things immediately after being released - yes, Tulkas is watching him, but I'd imagine he could find his way around.

In the end, I suppose what matters is what you take as the cornerstone:

1) Melkor's 3 ages of imprisonment, and how faithfully do you wish to stick to the original c. 2,875 SY figure

2) the departure of the Vanyar and Noldor to Aman in YT 1132

3) or something else altogether


Perhaps you could even do what you did with the AAm - anchor the earlier YT GA dates around the departure of the Vanyar and the Noldor (YT 1132), and anchor the later figures around, say, the death of the Trees (YT 1495/VY 888)? Of course, what counts as 'later figures'?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think Cirdan is confirmed somewhere to have been born by Cuivienen. We could probably put a note about Eol on the relevant entry (looks like it's 2931); it's not like we know how he's related to Elwe anyway, so missing that out won't be too hard.



300 note 16 points back to the same genealogical tables. 257 places Elrun and Eldun in the Wanderings of Hurin. I'm starting to think Nimloth herself literally only appears once, let alone her relationship to any other Sindar!

About Cirdan - yeah, I'll have to go dig up a reference, but I'm pretty sure you're right.

And yes, Eol can easily still be Thingol's kin even if he decided to stop at the Hithaeglir (I mean, there are 23 generations between Thingol and Enel/Enelye!). Which would also explain why he gave him Nan Elmoth (an entire forest), even if Eol had to work for it - but perhaps that's what Tolkien had in mind when he said that kinship with Thingol 'would have point'.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

300 note 16 points back to the same genealogical tables. 257 places Elrun and Eldun in the Wanderings of Hurin. I'm starting to think Nimloth herself literally only appears once, let alone her relationship to any other Sindar!

hS

I'm referring to the "late addition" to the typescript part.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Tar Elenion

I'm referring to the "late addition" to the typescript part.

Huh...

I imagine that, as seen many times before, Tolkien doodled on the page of the December 1959 'Genealogy' - I wonder what the first of these 'late additions' were?



@Huinesoron - I wonder what you make of the whole 'Celeborn as a Teler' and 'Celebrimbor, descendant of Daeron' situation?