Ambarkanta

[ArcusCalion]

Tolkien explicitly says an intervention of Eru would be necessary for that reading, and then declines to ever give that reading credence. It seems untenable to assume it when he did not take the explicit chance to confirm it, rather treating it as unlikely. Basically he's saying 'that scenario would take a miracle.' Which is to say - it is unlikely to be the case.

As to the reading of the footnote I am genuinely unsure how your interpretation can be taken from his words. Taken as a continuous text, with the footnote absorbed into the main flow, it reads:

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda, since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

he says the direct words SHOULD mean that he was thrust from Ea entirely, BUT that this would require a miracle (for which he implies there is no evidence) and thus it MAY refer INACCURATELY to his thrusting from Arda into the wider spaces of Ea SINCE Men were inclined to conflate the two in casual speech and concept.

I see no way in which this can mean he is implying that Men are claiming he is sent to space. His whole contention is that the 'texts' of the lore itself was a Mannish tradition, thus he uses the Mannish misconceptions to solve apparent contradictions in cosmology and science, such as this one.

[Findegil]

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

I think the passage in question should just stand as it is - and the reader can decide for themself.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Tolkien explicitly says an intervention of Eru would be necessary for that reading, and then declines to ever give that reading credence. It seems untenable to assume it when he did not take the explicit chance to confirm it, rather treating it as unlikely. Basically he's saying 'that scenario would take a miracle.' Which is to say - it is unlikely to be the case.

As to the reading of the footnote I am genuinely unsure how your interpretation can be taken from his words. Taken as a continuous text, with the footnote absorbed into the main flow, it reads:


he says the direct words SHOULD mean that he was thrust from Ea entirely, BUT that this would require a miracle (for which he implies there is no evidence) and thus it MAY refer INACCURATELY to his thrusting from Arda into the wider spaces of Ea SINCE Men were inclined to conflate the two in casual speech and concept.

I see no way in which this can mean he is implying that Men are claiming he is sent to space. His whole contention is that the 'texts' of the lore itself was a Mannish tradition, thus he uses the Mannish misconceptions to solve apparent contradictions in cosmology and science, such as this one.

I've since found another text which is more explicit about Morgoth being thrown out of Ea:

The Valar listened to the pleading of Eärendil on behalf of Elves and Men (both his kin), and sent a great host to their aid. Morgoth was overthrown and extruded from the World (the physical universe).

- Letter 297 (August 1967), p. 386 (bolded part is my emphasis)


This is a very late text (1967), and there's no ambiguity here (the 'World' is capitalized, and at any rate clarified as meaning 'physical universe' in the parentheses).