Ambarkanta

[ArcusCalion]

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Amb-06bWalls of {the World}Night; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon Amb-06.1the Voids of Eä. {For the World}But Eä is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

[gandalf85]

Amb-02.2 and Amb-02.3 are great additions which definitely clear things up! Well done Fin!

To markings I do not comment on, I agree to Fin's construction.

Amb-02 and Amb-06 I am OK with this, but we need to be careful. Are we using "The World" as a synonym for Ea? After all, we translate Eärambar (literally "walls of Ea") as Walls of the World. Later we say things like "Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South." and "...Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth." To me it seems clear in these sentences that "the World" is referring to Arda and not Ea. Later we say "The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world..." Are we making a distinction between capitalized "World" and lower-case "world"? I also think we have a problem with Melkor returning "over the Walls of Night" in the main narrative if here we state the Door of Night was created to thrust Melkor out into Ea. If Earendil is guarding the Door of Night, why doesn't Melkor simply return "over the Walls of Night" like he did before? Also, are we going to keep the reference to the Gates of Morning in the Akallabeth and not refer to them here? If so, are we supposing these Gates are in the Wall of Night?

Amb-06.2 I do not understand the reason for this change either.

Amb-08.5b For some reason "the fall of the pillars of the lamps" does not sound Tolkienian to me. I think "run of the lamps" is fine.

Diagrams and maps I agree that editing them is outside the scope of the project, although that would be an interesting project to undertake. Most maps/diagrams I've seen are clearly not aiming for accuracy (except for the most part Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps) and do not show the entirety of Ea.

Amb-09 Yes, we should definitely include the Hithaeglir. It looks like Arcus made a small change and forgot to post it here, I have renamed it Amb-09b:

Amb-09b <LQ 1 {But the}[And yet other] mountains were the Hithaeglir...

I think the addition of "yet" helps it flow a bit better.

Also, Fin, the title should be "Ambarcanta," not "Ambracanta".

[ArcusCalion]

Amb-02/06: This is indeed a dilemma. Perhaps we could change Walls of the World to Walls of Creation. Because, as you say, 'the world' seems to refer to Arda, not Ea as a whole. Tolkien himself proposed the {Ilurambar}[Earambar] change, so I think a translation of this as Walls of Creation is certainly possible. Or we could simply say 'Walls of Ea'. As for Door of Night, as Fin says we must think of this more as a metaphysical barrier, having perhaps an anchor at a physical point, but its use is to keep Melkor out, as exemplified by the line about Earendil watching over it. We cannot further clarify this without essentially introducing fanfiction, and I think there is enough information at the moment for the reader to infer an explanation. As for the Gates of Morning, I have recently added them to my private draft of the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, and I can discuss them in that place when it comes time to review that chapter once more with Aiwendil.

[Findegil]

Amb-02; about all the World => about all Eä: I thought about that change as well, but found it awakward to have “About all Eä are the Eärambar, or Walls of the World.” But in the end it does not really matter if we double Eä or World in this sentence.

World = Eä; world = Arda: I am nit sure if this can be our solution. JRR Tolkien was very unspecific in his usage of the word ‘World’ (equily if big or small case). We either can live with his unspecific usage or we must go through all case where he uses the word and decised what to do – a huge work but not impossible. But it would be changes for clearness only and the unclearness was not created by our editing. So fare the project avoided such bettering of JRR Tolkien’s works.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I think we must not be more correct here then JRR Tolkien was. For the Ainur the Walls of Night are not really a barrier. The Walls are concifed as such a barrier for anythink else within Arda. From what we hear about them one could assume that they are a kind over dimensional soup bowl, filled with Ekkaia. But the rim is a good deal above the water surface plane (as it should always be in a good kitchen). Thus Melkor could easily go over the top and came down into Arda.
I said before that probably Morogth after his defeat at the end of the First Age has no mind to return to Arda as long as he does not see a new chance for himself to win the fight against Manwë and his allies. In MT we hear that Melkor dissipated himself into all the matter of Middle-Earth. Thus part of his being could not be removed and would work farther for his case, what so ever the Valar did. And we hear in MT that Morgoth incontrast to Sauron could grow again. So we might expect him to come back in Dagor Dagorath but not earlier.

Gates of Morning: Akalabêth does not specifiy what it was that the Númenoreans saw. It could be a pass in the Walls of the Sun. Anyhow that mountain range would prevent the sailors to see Gate of Morning if it was a in Walls of Night.

Amb-06: I think if we take AcrusCalions point of view, which is a decent decision, we have to remove some of the attributes of Ando Lómen:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of Amb-06c{the World}[Night]; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Amb-06.05{Timeless }Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon the Amb-06.1b{Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time}<MT vast <editorial addition empty >spaces within Ëa>. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

Amb-06.1b: I think we should remove the reference to Kuma, the Void, here, because with that we would only farther the confusion. I think we should move it and as we use the Doors of Night here we have to remove them earlier:

Amb-02b<moved from bellow{For the}The World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.05{, save by the Door of Night}.

Amb-06.2: What gondowe refers to is that Earendil is already sailing in Ilmen before Morgothe was thrust through the Door of Night, so that it might be that the Valar had made the Door ready before Eonwë marched against Morgoth.

Amb-08.5b: But the ruin of the Lamps did creat great burnings. What about removing the Lamps:

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5c{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land.

Diagrams and Maps: I think we have to edit them and that is why I said if we can manage it. Of course we are not going to make an elaborated Altas like Karen Wynn Fonstad, but must clear them from issues we have identified here, and we probably have to include some missing features like the Hithaeglir (which is of course the most problematic part).

Amb-09b: Agreed.

{Ambrakanta}[Ambarcanta]: Thanks for pointing this out.

Respcetfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

World: I think to impose the World = Ea; world = Arda distinction is artificial and too needlessly editorial. How is this:

Amb-02 <moved from below {For the World}The Creation, Eä, is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all {the World}Eä are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of {the World}Creation.

I agree to the rest of them Fin, they look wonderful.

[gandalf85]

The usage of World: OK, I agree with you guys, we should just leave "World" and "world" as unspecific. It would indeed be needlessly editorial.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I like the "soup bowl" metaphor, but it seems strange that the Valar would set Earendil to watch the Door of Night if Melkor can simply return at any point over the "rim" whenever he wants. I missed your comment about it being something not physical, Fin. I think that's the best explanation. Melkor biding his time would also make sense.

Gates of Morning: You're right, this is ambiguous enough so it should be fine to leave it as is in the Akallabeth.

Amb-06 and Amb-06.1 I agree to these changes, I think this makes it clearer.

Amb-06.2: Oh, I get it now. Yes, I agree to Gondowe's proposed change. "In the time" is nice and vague.

Amb-08.5b: I see why you made your original change now. This is indeed more clear.

Diagrams and Maps: I agree we would have to edit them slightly if we decide to include them. I mentioned Fonstad's maps mostly as a compliment to her and using her as a contrast to the "lungs map" (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-conten...nds_color.jpeg) which boggles my mind every time I see it. Numenor isn't even a star!

Amb-02: Upon reflection, since we are going to use "World" in an unspecific way, I think it's better the way Fin has it. Adding in "Creation" like that feels like too much of an editorial intrusion on our part.

[ArcusCalion]

Amb-02: very well, leaving it as is works fine.

Maps: Gods the lung map... it gives me extreme stress whenever I see it because I think of all the people who have been led astray by it.

[Findegil]

I can only emphasis the compliment to Fonstad, The Historical Atlas is one of my favourite pieces of secondary literature on Tolkien’s World.
And yes, the contrast to the “lungs map” could not be greater. I first set my eyes on that ridiculous thing in black and white print in David Day’s “Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia” (in the German translation, loan from a public libary, later unhappily I got the book as a gift). Even back then when I had not read more of Tolkien then The Hobbit, LotR and Sil77 I observed how obviously wrong this map was. In some aspects (like the Star shape of Numenor) the Author is not to be blaimed, because the work was really drawn quiet early, when Sil77 was the only source for the First and Second Age. But other aspects like the relative placing of Beleriand and Eriador or the freely placed features in ‘Undaying Lands’ he should have known better. In its over all composition this map skips one very important dimension: time. It draws together every thing that is every mention in all the ages of Arda. This concept could only lead to a worng picture. None the less the map had a lasting influence: Until The Shaping of Middle-Earth was published I think the shape of the western continent was in may maps based more or less on the shape it has in this map.

Eärendil and the Door of Night: It is not like Eärendil standing guard at the portal. He is sailing in Vingilot upon Ilmen, I suppose. And that means he is more or less patrolling all the wide area (nearly a half-globe) of Vaiya where there is no Wall of Night.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing: This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

As per the Myths Transformed, Morgoth's spirit (after his body was executed by Mandos himself) was 100% thrown out of Ea - outside of Time and Space even:

Morgoth was thus actually 'made captive in physical form' and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and 'executed': that is 'killed' like one of the Incarnates.

But the most pertinent part of this discussion comes from just a few lines below the above quote:

We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

*[footnote to the text]: Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

All of these quotes come from Morgoth's Ring, 'Myths Transformed', Text VII, p. 403


While I'm well aware that the cosmology in the MT is profoundly different than that in the Ambarkanta, I still think we should keep some of these passages - especially Morgoth's banishment outside of Time and Space (i.e. the metaphysical Void, and not just the outer space), even though I'm in favor of having a faaaar larger Ea (that is, space outside of Arda).


Of course, we should delete the references to the Solar System and such.

[ArcusCalion]

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru.

What makes you think that Eru DIDN'T intervene here? Eru is all-powerful, and an event such as Morgoth's execution and the defeat/decline of his spirit to the point of his core fea becoming a minute shell of his former greatness, would surely be enough to warrant Eru's involvement - to one degree or another.

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.

[ArcusCalion]

Tolkien explicitly says an intervention of Eru would be necessary for that reading, and then declines to ever give that reading credence. It seems untenable to assume it when he did not take the explicit chance to confirm it, rather treating it as unlikely. Basically he's saying 'that scenario would take a miracle.' Which is to say - it is unlikely to be the case.

As to the reading of the footnote I am genuinely unsure how your interpretation can be taken from his words. Taken as a continuous text, with the footnote absorbed into the main flow, it reads:

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda, since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

he says the direct words SHOULD mean that he was thrust from Ea entirely, BUT that this would require a miracle (for which he implies there is no evidence) and thus it MAY refer INACCURATELY to his thrusting from Arda into the wider spaces of Ea SINCE Men were inclined to conflate the two in casual speech and concept.

I see no way in which this can mean he is implying that Men are claiming he is sent to space. His whole contention is that the 'texts' of the lore itself was a Mannish tradition, thus he uses the Mannish misconceptions to solve apparent contradictions in cosmology and science, such as this one.

[Findegil]

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

I think the passage in question should just stand as it is - and the reader can decide for themself.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Tolkien explicitly says an intervention of Eru would be necessary for that reading, and then declines to ever give that reading credence. It seems untenable to assume it when he did not take the explicit chance to confirm it, rather treating it as unlikely. Basically he's saying 'that scenario would take a miracle.' Which is to say - it is unlikely to be the case.

As to the reading of the footnote I am genuinely unsure how your interpretation can be taken from his words. Taken as a continuous text, with the footnote absorbed into the main flow, it reads:


he says the direct words SHOULD mean that he was thrust from Ea entirely, BUT that this would require a miracle (for which he implies there is no evidence) and thus it MAY refer INACCURATELY to his thrusting from Arda into the wider spaces of Ea SINCE Men were inclined to conflate the two in casual speech and concept.

I see no way in which this can mean he is implying that Men are claiming he is sent to space. His whole contention is that the 'texts' of the lore itself was a Mannish tradition, thus he uses the Mannish misconceptions to solve apparent contradictions in cosmology and science, such as this one.

I've since found another text which is more explicit about Morgoth being thrown out of Ea:

The Valar listened to the pleading of Eärendil on behalf of Elves and Men (both his kin), and sent a great host to their aid. Morgoth was overthrown and extruded from the World (the physical universe).

- Letter 297 (August 1967), p. 386 (bolded part is my emphasis)


This is a very late text (1967), and there's no ambiguity here (the 'World' is capitalized, and at any rate clarified as meaning 'physical universe' in the parentheses).