Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

It's alright, my 'sequence' was just a thought experiment anyway.

As to the Hunt, while I still lean toward the idea that Thingol died in Menegroth (as per an interpretation of 'Concerning'), I'm fine either way.

Originally Posted by Findegil

RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

Most of it is fine, but my original complaint was that I believe that it was Thingol who started the fight according to 'Concerning': however, the passage in question is vague enough to be interpreted either way, it's just that I think that the curse of Mim/Glaurung/Morgoth/whomever worked its way really quickly on Thingol in the later conception, potentially leading him to commit some heinous deeds.

But again, I'm fine with either interpretation.

Originally Posted by Findegil

{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

Not at all - I'm sure there was plenty of gold in the hoard.

My problem was that in The Nauglafring, Tinwelint's obsession was with gold, not silver; and in the 'Concerning' it is the other way around (cf. the two silver thrones for himself and Melian, and the Nauglamir being made of silver - paralleling Thranduil in The Hobbit).

With that in mind, whatever trinkets made for Tinwelint in TN (i.e. gold helm, gold hilt, etc.) should be changed to 'silver', to reflect the thematic change in the 'Concerning'.

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

I guess the 'Mim being thrice avenged' and the line before that can be interpreted as propaganda/rationalization. I'm still hesitant about it, but you and Aiwendil made a decent argument.

Originally Posted by Findegil

By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

You're wrong about this, though.

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath:

At last in an unhappy hour he sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.

and after that

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

which leads me to

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).

So, in the 'Concerning' at least, Mim was not related to either the Dwarves of Nogrod or Belegost.


P.S. The idea that it was only the Dwarves of Nogrod that attacked Doriath comes from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', right? But that text was written in the '50s, while 'Concerning... The Hoard' dates from c. 1964.

Is there any text later than 'Concerning... The Hoard' that has only the Dwarves of Nogrod take part in the invasion?

[Arvegil145]

There's an interesting comment by Hammond and Scull, in regards to 'Concerning... The Hoard', from lotrplaza.com:

With regard to the ruin of Doriath, the story told in the 1964 manuscript is closer to the Quenta Noldorinwa (not published until 1986) than to The Nauglafring in The Book of Lost Tales, but differs in some respects from any published version — for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

My emphasis.

It seems that either Hammond and Scull misremembered the text, or, more intriguingly, came to a different conclusion regarding the death of Thingol.

The full quote is found on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conc...27The_Hoard%27

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

[Val Balmer]

I mostly agree with Aiwendil in his two latest posts.

Personally, I would keep the hunt story and involve only the dwarves of Belegost.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

Did you notice the plural in:

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

That plus:

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains)

The context of which to me at least heavily suggests that both Nogrod and Belegost were involved.

[Findegil]

RD-SL-18 /that is this edirtin mark dedicated to inclusion/execlusion of the Dwarves from Belegost): Arvegil145 arguments with the plurals are convincing, to me at least, that throughout CtH Dwarves from both Nogrod and Belegost are involved. It is not unthinkable as Aiwendil argued that the reversal of the decision taken by Tolkien in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn to leave the Belegost Dwarves out was a kind of consecutive slip of the pen. But I think that argument could be made of many, many changes in the story line of this particular chapter, as Tolkien changed his mind nearly as often as his shirt.
So lets look on the text itself for some weighing: In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn the information about the Belgost Dwarves is given in a kind of side note. It seems their intended to explain why the Elves of Eriador under Galadriel could build up a good relation to the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm. It has its short comings for that function anyway, since not only the Dwarves of Belegost wandered to Khazad-dûm after the destruction of Beleriand but the Dwarves of Nogrod (involved for sure in the Fall of Doriath) as well.
CtH, on the other hand, is a text concerned spezially with the story of the Fall Doriath. Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

Long story made short: I think we have to re-insert the Dwarves of Belegost into the fighting.

Now that will raise some farther question:
- In TN the Dwarves of Bodruith and Naugladur have names of their own: Indrafangs and Nauglath. So fare we did replaced both by Naugrim which was teh generic name for all Dwarves encountered by the Eldar in Beleriand (so both from Nogrod and Belegost but not neccesarrily or only by transmission for the Long-beards of Khazad-dûm or other kindereds of the Dwarves). That was okay as long as the Noford Dwarves where the only kind present, but now we might wish to re-establish the distincion.
- the name of the Lord of the Indrafangs 'Bodruith' signified something like 'revenge'. As that now back as a motive of his actions, we should re-establich his name as well.
- If we take the splited forces of the attacking Dwarves as they acted in TN, I think we should make Bodruith the leader of the first invader of Menegroth talking to Melian before Naugladur enters.
- What is about the treachary of Bodruith against Naugladur on the way back and following infight among the Dwarves? It would fit the theme of the curse of Mîm and help explain why Beren with a hand full of Green-Elves could annihilate an army that the full muster of Doriath could not even stop from plundering Menegroth.
- If we take that treachary of Bodruith in again, who comes than to the timely rescue of Naugladur?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: If I would be in for more Fan-Fictional versions of the story, I would take Ibûn, the son of Mîm, into the story: He would after the death of Mîm search his way to Belegost and their been admitted 'back' into the societie out of pity. He would thus be the source of the information abouts Mîm violent death by the hands of Húrin and his Outlaws. Triggering the final descision to march against Doriath. Following Bodruith into the Battle of Menegorth he might than be the one to talk to Melian and take as well the rolle of Ufedhin in the treachary of Bodruith. As murder of his new lord he could hardly go back to Belegost and thus would fly into the woods 'for he could
not endure to look upon the eyes of Gwendelin, and madness took
him, and none may say what was his unhappy weird thereafter;
and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of Glorund.'

[Arvegil145]

While I agree that if we keep both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost in, Bodruith should also stay in.

However, this is where we run into the old dilemma of what to do with the very early names - maybe we should just keep the Lord of Belegost unnamed.

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien might not have thought about the implication it had for the story of Ost-in-Edhil if he involved the Belegost Dwarves, but he clearly had no reasons springing from the story of the Nauglamír to reject them. And, for me at least, their inclusion also means that this did not creat a glaring problem in any other story, otherwise Tolkien would probabaly have realised it.

It's that last part that I don't fully agree with. Tolkien may very well have written CtH with the intention that the Dwarves of Belegost took part in the Ruin of Doriath without it occurring to him that this created a problem for the story of Ost-in-Edhil.

However, Arvegil has at least convinced me of the first bit - that CtH in itself does imply that the attack on Menegroth was made by the Dwarves of both kingdoms.

I think a case could still be made for retaining the version in "Concerning Celeborn and Galadriel". But as it seems that others are inclined to reintroduce Belegost into the attack, I won't stand in the way of that. The matter of how to do this in the text is significantly trickier, and I will need to mull over Findegil's ideas above.

[Findegil]

There was a discussion about 'Bodruith' as a name back in the past. The result was that the deficiant Sindarin would be okay, since the name is an outer Dwarve name and could be formed imperfectly by the Dwarves from any dialect the Belegost Dwarves had contact with. That would allow for any kind of imperfections.
The name was than skipped because it means 'revenge' and as the Belegost dwarves were taken out of the fight in Menegroth the reference for the name was lost.

For me that means when we take the Belegost Dwarves back into the fight, the name is back 'Bodruith' is back as well.

Respectfully
Findegil