The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > The New Silmarillion > Translations from the Elvish - Public Forum
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2023, 11:21 AM   #1
Arvegil145
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Arvegil145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
Arvegil145 has just left Hobbiton.
Can someone tell me if the 'First Phase' of the Later Quenta (in Morgoth's Ring) was written before or after the last version of the Akallabeth?

I ask because in the 'First Phase' there is an occurrence of the name 'Avallone' used for the entire island, instead of the easternmost city:

Quote:
*[footnote to the text] 'Avallónë' also it was after called, signifying the isle that lies nighest unto the Valar in Valinor. Quoth Ælfwine. [Placed in the body of the text by the typist of LQ 1 but subsequently reinstated as a footnote.]
Also, the etymology of the element -lone in 'Avallone' translates to "Isle" - you'd think that a better name for a haven would be something like 'Avallonde' (i.e. -londe meaning "Haven"), but that's just speculation.
__________________
Quote:
Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre, þē ūre mægen lytlað.

Last edited by Arvegil145; 08-20-2023 at 11:25 AM.
Arvegil145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2023, 04:42 PM   #2
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arvegil145 View Post
Can someone tell me if the 'First Phase' of the Later Quenta (in Morgoth's Ring) was written before or after the last version of the Akallabeth?
I believe the First Phase of LQ is from about 1951, while the latest version of the Akallabeth is from c. 1958.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2023, 05:51 AM   #3
Arvegil145
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Arvegil145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
Arvegil145 has just left Hobbiton.
I see - by '1958', do you mean just additions and corrections? Since I was under the impression that the final version of the Akallabeth story (as such) was written by Tolkien around c. 1951 or so.


Anyway - the motivation behind my previous reply is that I'm not quite sure that Tolkien made up his mind about whether or not 'Avallone' was the name of the city or the name for Tol Eressea as a whole.

And if we are going to keep the version where the name refers to the city/harbour in the east of Tol Eressea, I think we should rename it to 'Avallonde', since:

1) The name is already attested

2) The element '-londe' means 'Harbour' - as opposed to '-lone' (meaning 'Island')
__________________
Quote:
Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre, þē ūre mægen lytlað.
Arvegil145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2023, 02:43 PM   #4
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Avallone could be the name of the habour, even so '-lone' means island. It could be a shortend version of some longer name meaning things like the 'habour on the Island near Valinor'

Respectfully
Findegil
Findegil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2023, 07:51 AM   #5
ArcusCalion
Quentingolmo
 
ArcusCalion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
ArcusCalion has just left Hobbiton.
I would like to say I am categorically against changing the name to Avalonde based on a hunch. Even if it seems odd in meaning, it is not for us to make up new names in this way it seems to me.
ArcusCalion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2023, 08:21 AM   #6
Arvegil145
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Arvegil145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
Arvegil145 has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcusCalion View Post
I would like to say I am categorically against changing the name to Avalonde based on a hunch. Even if it seems odd in meaning, it is not for us to make up new names in this way it seems to me.
'Avallonde' is not a made-up name - it appears in the Drowning of Anadune.


See the entry on Eldamo for a more in-depth look at the development of the name: https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-3289261925.html
__________________
Quote:
Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre, þē ūre mægen lytlað.
Arvegil145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2023, 05:01 AM   #7
Arvegil145
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Arvegil145's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
Arvegil145 has just left Hobbiton.
Isn't the Akallabeth basically a fusion of two sources, Elvish and Mannish (i.e. The Fall of Numenor and the Drowning of Anadune)?

If so, shouldn't we expect certain things (such as the 'flying ships') to be present in one telling of the story and not the other?

In other words, just because something is missing in the Akallabeth itself, doesn't necessarily mean that Tolkien rejected it.

And since we're not creating a 'work of literature' so much as a giant 'lore compendium' (so to speak), I think we have the luxury of making things explicit that Tolkien might otherwise not.
__________________
Quote:
Hige sceal þē heardra, heorte þē cēnre,
mōd sceal þē māre, þē ūre mægen lytlað.
Arvegil145 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:47 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.