Beren in Dagor Dagorath

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I mean... no? But if Turin actually returned for the War of Wrath, the total absence of this concept anywhere else in the Legendarium, the contradiction with the statements that Beren was the only mortal to return from death, and the fact that he would have waited in the Halls of Mandos for 50+ years rather than moving on, all make it difficult to accept at face value. It also takes a mythic Returning Hero and turns him into a historically-verifiable event: Bilbo could ask Elrond about it and be told, "Oh yeah, Turin came back for a bit; I chatted with him, he was intense." It just doesn't feel like it fits.

But this, in my opinion, rests on the matter being a historical certainty, so to speak. But what if Andreth's prophecy is uttered, and the truth of the words are never confirmed by internal characters or internal texts? I admit that this is how I think Tolkien was going to inject the idea into the Legendarium, which is arguably another way to say, this is how I'd do it.

My edited version of Quenta Silmarillion concerning the War of Wrath:


" . . . that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire"

"But Earendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle all day and through a dark night of doubt. And before the rising of the sun, the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed, even Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host. And the towers of Thangorodrim lay in ruin; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed . . ."


In short, it is never said who slew Ancalagon. No one knew exactly what happened to every single dragon slain, especially after night fell.

But in another section of the Legendarium, even perhaps in a footnote to some text about languages and names, the reader finds a prophecy about Turin! Did it happen? It seems unlikely that a prophecy should not come true, yet it can never be certainly determined, until perhaps the End -- in other words, if the prophecy "should prove true" -- not only after uttered, but also when this could ultimately be revealed as certain by the "gods" or Eru himself, then we would know that the language of Haleth's folk could indeed have been heard again.

( . . . )

Could Andreth have prophesies about the War of Wrath? Sure. Finrod in her presence speaks prophetically of both the Bragollach and Arda Renewed, so we know that both timeframes were available to foresight. But I don't think this source text can be held up as supporting such a prophecy.

Okay thanks for the explanation! I understand better now.

For me though, so far anyway, The Problem of ROS is essentially an external text. It begins with Tolkien-as-author writing about the problems he perceives, even with respect to Primary World words. Then he goes into: "Proposed solution. Associate the name Elros . . ."

And what follows is still, I think, more like Tolkien "talking to himself" [even if arguably slipping, now and again,
into "poetic prose" mode], working out the details that could exist within the Secondary World, in part, to allow the scenario to be true. I agree that the statement -- if the prophecy "should prove true" -- gives the air of an in-story note, but given the text as a whole, for myself (again, so far), I can't press it as a fully considered internal source. I think if the scenario had not failed, the text [if indeed such a text was to be the vehicle for any and all new history arrived at during the proposed solution] awaited a more considered in-story treatment with respect to purpose and authorship.

Admittedly this post may be less than compelling (to put it mildly) since it contains mere theory concerning how I
think Tolkien might have "intended" to incorporate such an idea, but I do find it "Tolkien-ish" . . .

. . . as subjective as that is

And then, as I further wonder, does Andreth's prophecy provide the Numenoreans a groundwork for the End Times Myth in which Turin goes from dragon slayer to dealing Morgoth himself a death blow.