Beren in Dagor Dagorath

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Just a slight correction, if you don't mind - Andreth's prophecy in The Problem of Ros does not refer to Dagor Dagorath, but rather the ending to the War of Wrath in the First Age.

Why Tolkien did that, meaning shifting Turin's fate from killing Morgoth at the end of time to Turin killing Ancalagon in the War of Wrath, is anybody's guess IMO.

One thing to keep in mind though, is that the prophecy is made by Andreth, a mortal woman of the Edain (as opposed to Mandos), in this conception of the legendarium - and it may well have been the case that Tolkien, when he decided that the histories of the Elder Days were Mannish in origin and that the Elves had no predictions of their own regarding the ending of the world, simply intended Andreth's prophecy to have been one among many others.

It looks like I was ambivalent in the other thread, but on rechecking I'm pretty sure it's the Dagorath. Christopher concludes that it's the War of Wrath, but there's two pieces of evidence suggesting otherwise:

1/ Andreth died just after the Bragollach, about a decade before Turin was even born. The "one prophecy among any others" explanation would have to assume that she correctly foresaw the birth of Turin and Morgoth's emnity with him, and the creation of Ancalagon - but then added a false prophecy on the end about him coming back 50 years after his death.

2/ The context in which "the language of the Folk of Haleth was not used", and wouldn't be unless Turin returned from the Dead, is Earendil's appeal to the Valar. There isn't a lot of time between those two events; and "Problem of Ros" namechecks Numenor, which means if it has an internal existence at all (which the ambiguity in the prophecy suggests), it must be a Numenorean or Gondorian text writing after the War of Wrath.

It seems more plausible that between footnote and text, Tolkien used two different meanings of Last Battle, than that he suddenly decided to resurrect Turin for the War of Wrath and simultaneously overturn Earendil's longstanding killing of Ancalagon.

If it is a reference to the War of Wrath, then for the Dagorath we're back where we started: there's no references to a battle later than the Lost Tales, just to a four-on-one duel with Morgoth.

hS