New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

(As to Gandalf: well, he did fail to identify the One Ring, which was imbued with power akin to his own, even while picking it up to put in its envelope. But also, given how much trouble the Arkenstone had caused when everyone thought it was just a shiny rock, sticking it unidentified in a tomb was probably the best place for it!)

hS

That is the thing, with the information available to him Gandalf should have deduced the nature of Bilbo's ring much earlier than he did... It makes me think less of him.

[Galadriel55]

I think it comes down to this: do you WANT the Arkenstone to be the Silmaril? Because, if you want something hard enough - or on the contrary, if you don't want something hard enough, you'll find arguments and counterarguments on both sides, and declare that the legitimate canonicity and interpretation is the one that supports your cause.

I don't want the Arkenstone to be the Silmaril, though I recognize that it was meta-inspired by the Silmaril the way Hui describes (ie in the same way the Elvenking is Thingol). I want the Silmarils to have an epic and symbolic end. I want them to be unique, untouchable, unrepeatable. I want their light to be something special - they are not just gems that glow, they glow with a light that is more than the world of the Sun and Moon. Furthermore, I want the Elves and the Dwarves to have their own unique jewels, not everything must be about the same old Silmarils.

So, all in all, my main argument against the Arkenstone being the Silmaril is that, in my eyes, such a thing would ruin both stories rather than make them more interesting. Cogito, ergo they are not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So, all in all, my main argument against the Arkenstone being the Silmaril is that, in my eyes, such a thing would ruin both stories rather than make them more interesting. Cogito, ergo they are not.

I agree with this. As I've said, the idea that one Silmaril was spared so that it could end up lying on the body of a dwarf (an Heir of Durin notwithstanding) underground is out of alignment with the epic stature of the Silmarils.

That aside, has anyone thought how a dragon could have shared a space with a Silmaril for 171 years and never seen or touched it? And the Arkenstone wasn't buried under piles of treasure, either. Bilbo found it near the top of the heap.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I agree with this. As I've said, the idea that one Silmaril was spared so that it could end up lying on the body of a dwarf (an Heir of Durin notwithstanding) underground is out of alignment with the epic stature of the Silmarils.

That aside, has anyone thought how a dragon could have shared a space with a Silmaril for 171 years and never seen or touched it? And the Arkenstone wasn't buried under piles of treasure, either. Bilbo found it near the top of the heap.

Plain insulting dwarves now to make an argument joking

What’s the significance of Smaug being near it? He didn’t eat treasure just hoarded it without seemingly any interest beyond gold=shiny=good.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

What’s the significance of Smaug being near it? He didn’t eat treasure just hoarded it without seemingly any interest beyond gold=shiny=good.

It was established that the Silmaril called to those who beheld it. Carcaroth was moved to eat the thing in Beren's hand. It's a stretch to believe that having seen one, Smaug would not have touched it even once.

[Formendacil]

Ah, but the speculative Hui-theory is that the Silmaril is but the core of the Arkenstone: the cut facets must be some non-Silmaril material that frames it but not the perfectly round Silmaril itself. How thick a layer of crystal/obsidian/acrylic needs be around a Silmaril to keep it from burning a dragon's dainty mitts?

(Never mind that burning seems particularly inapt a punishment for a dragon.)


The whole theory is, to my mind, clearly wrong, but I find I can tolerate quite a bit of utter wrongness when it's done knowing it's wrong.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So, all in all, my main argument against the Arkenstone being the Silmaril is that, in my eyes, such a thing would ruin both stories rather than make them more interesting. Cogito, ergo they are not.

Ultimately, this. The Silmarils are a part of the First Age, the war of the Light against Those who would destroy it. Their one representative in the Third Age, the star and light of Earendil, serves as a reminder of that war, a memory of which side won, and a weapon against the daughter of She who would devour it. To have another representative serve as an unknown spark of conflict would be to weaken the Silmarils and the end of the First Age both.


... but.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The whole theory is, to my mind, clearly wrong, but I find I can tolerate quite a bit of utter wrongness when it's done knowing it's wrong.

It can be so much fun.

(The Gundabad escape would be in the hands of a Longbeard princess, just like the escape from Doriath long ago. I already think she's amazing and she doesn't even have a name!)

hS

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So, all in all, my main argument against the Arkenstone being the Silmaril is that, in my eyes, such a thing would ruin both stories rather than make them more interesting. Cogito, ergo they are not.

I know you already said both sides will believe as they wish, and I’ve already said neither side can definitively prove the other wrong but this particular argument falls into the same logic ProArkenSils use of “well it’s cooler that way”

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I know you already said both sides will believe as they wish, and I’ve already said neither side can definitively prove the other wrong but this particular argument falls into the same logic ProArkenSils use of “well it’s cooler that way”

Exactly! If you think it's cooler that way... by all means.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Occam's razor applies here, I think. To make the Arkenstone a Silmaril means assuming a complex chain of improbabilities, starting with a physical explanation as to how the Dwarves could have shaped the unmarrable to begin with, not to mention how the devil it made it from a fiery chasm in drowned Beleriand to Erebor.

Whereas positing that they are two different jewels requires no assumptions at all.