New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Inziladun]

I haven’t examined this thread thoroughly enough to know if this quote has been added already, but it seems to lay the matter to rest.

The Noldor also it was who first achieved the making of gems; and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.

The Silmarillion Of the Beginning of Days

How much more finality does one require?

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I haven’t examined this thread thoroughly enough to know if this quote has been added already, but it seems to lay the matter to rest.

The Silmarillion Of the Beginning of Days

How much more finality does one require?

I’d argue the The Silmarillion was written before The Hobbit and set before it by a wide margin. If we take the approach that these are all just translations vs Tolkien’s writings I put very little stock in the finality of its authors.

I mean I can write “my headphones are lost” does this mean I will never find them? Ever? “Lost” only has finality as a euphemism for death. And in Tolkien’s world that’s not even a definite.

“But what was lost may yet be found”-Gandalf council of Elrond

In fact the entire debate about the ring is losing it won’t be good enough. Eventually it’ll be found even from the deepest oceans.

As for shaping it, I easily interpret that as it being in a volcano rock that they chipped away to reveal it.

Is the Arkenstone a Silmaril? I don’t know. I do know arguments against it aren’t the most compelling I’ve read, after reading most of this thread.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I’d argue the The Silmarillion was written before The Hobbit and set before it by a wide margin. If we take the approach that these are all just translations vs Tolkien’s writings I put very little stock in the finality of its authors.

To me, that points at the "canonicity" issue, and if we're going there, then all bets are off, and anything is possible.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I mean I can write “my headphones are lost” does this mean I will never find them? Ever? “Lost” only has finality as a euphemism for death. And in Tolkien’s world that’s not even a definite.

Yet, the Silmarils are consistently written as being important to a specific time in the history of Arda, with no indication they would ever again be a matter for the Children of Ilúvatar to be concerned.

As for Gandalf's remark at the Council of Elrond, for one thing, he was merely quoting Saruman's thoughts on Sauron's ideas about the One Ring's whereabouts.
Second, that comment was certainly valid for the Great Rings, as Gandalf told Frodo they "had a way of being found". But they were Sauron's work, and their propensity for attracting potential "owners" was due to a malevolent power.
I do not see the same characteristic in the Silmarils, because from all indications in the annals of Arda, their purpose was accomplished: they were in secure places where they would indefinitely preserve the light of the Trees, while being safeguarded from all, whether good, bad, or in-between.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yet, the Silmarils are consistently written as being important to a specific time in the history of Arda, with no indication they would ever again be a matter for the Children of Ilúvatar to be concerned.

That’s certainly an interpretation, but again I’m not sure that’s an argument against their reappearance. Again I haven’t studied the Silmarillion or even read it so I only have surface level understanding through this thread and some articles, but it does seem to me the reemergence of light from the trees is if nothing else an excellent symbolic sign of strength. And we do know the stone is said to burn the unworthy Bilbo’s inherent place in the War of the Ring would make him worthy and Thorin (iirc) doesn’t handle it until he learns the wisdom of Bilbo.

Annoyingly I think if I were to stake a position on the affair it’d be agnosticism to say for sure it’s a Silmaril is equally a folly as to say it’s not.

As for everyone who keeps comparing this discussion to whether or not Balrogs have wings well, that is far more clear with one side being definitively wrong.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

That’s certainly an interpretation, but again I’m not sure that’s an argument against their reappearance. Again I haven’t studied the Silmarillion or even read it so I only have surface level understanding through this thread and some articles, but it does seem to me the reemergence of light from the trees is if nothing else an excellent symbolic sign of strength. And we do know the stone is said to burn the unworthy Bilbo’s inherent place in the War of the Ring would make him worthy and Thorin (iirc) doesn’t handle it until he learns the wisdom of Bilbo.

Annoyingly I think if I were to stake a position on the affair it’d be agnosticism to say for sure it’s a Silmaril is equally a folly as to say it’s not.

As for everyone who keeps comparing this discussion to whether or not Balrogs have wings well, that is far more clear with one side being definitively wrong.

*Sighs* The thread that refuses to die. I will give you some finality, anything further is simply arguing for arguing's sake. Direct quote:

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters."

1.The Silmaril tossed by Maglor into a fiery pit was in Beleriand, which no longer exists on a map. That whole wrath of Eru thing. It's not going to traverse thousands of miles away, under at least 2 mountain ranges and end up in Erebor.

And two other quotes:

"The great jewel shone before his [Bilbo's] feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves..."

"Like the crystal of diamonds it [a Silmaril] appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda."

2. If a Silmaril can't be marred, how can it be cut and fashioned? How was Thrain, who certainly was not worthy of holding it in his hand, able to not only carry it about, but bequeath it to later unworthy dwarves so they could handle it?

And finally,

3. How could Olórin, a Maia of Valinor and accounted wisest of the Istari, not immediately recognize a Silmaril when he handled it? You think he forgot what it looked liked from back in the day in Valinor? The greatest of all the works of the Elves (and of the Istari, he was closest to the Elves)? He certainly knew the One Ring, and was a Ring-wielder himself. You don't forget a Silmaril once you see it. Plus, leaving it in Erebor would have its own inherent danger of being taken by Sauron, who did indeed attack Erebor during the War of the Ring.

4. According to the Final Prophecy of Mandos, after Melkor's defeat in the Dagor Dagorath, the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees. A Silmaril is, as has been said countless times, a "holy jewel" bound to the revival of the Two Trees at the end of all things.

5. Do you think when the Valar and Maiar are searching in vain for the third Silmaril, Gandalf will say, "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, it's buried in a crypt with a dead dwarf in Erebor several thousand mile east of here. I gave it back to him a while back. Ummm....why are all you guys glaring at me like that?"

To consider a Silmaril to be the Arkenstone not only strains credulity, it shatters it into tiny shards, fit to be broomed up and dumped in a waste bin.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*Sighs* The thread that refuses to die. I will give you some finality, anything further is simply arguing for arguing's sake. Direct quote:

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters."

1.The Silmaril tossed by Maglor into a fiery pit was in Beleriand, which no longer exists on a map. That whole wrath of Eru thing. It's not going to traverse thousands of miles away, under at least 2 mountain ranges and end up in Erebor.

And two other quotes:

"The great jewel shone before his [Bilbo's] feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves..."

"Like the crystal of diamonds it [a Silmaril] appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda."

2. If a Silmaril can't be marred, how can it be cut and fashioned? How was Thrain, who certainly was not worthy of holding it in his hand, able to not only carry it about, but bequeath it to later unworthy dwarves so they could handle it?

And finally,

3. How could Olórin, a Maia of Valinor and accounted wisest of the Istari, not immediately recognize a Silmaril when he handled it? You think he forgot what it looked liked from back in the day in Valinor? The greatest of all the works of the Elves (and of the Istari, he was closest to the Elves)? He certainly knew the One Ring, and was a Ring-wielder himself. You don't forget a Silmaril once you see it. Plus, leaving it in Erebor would have its own inherent danger of being taken by Sauron, who did indeed attack Erebor during the War of the Ring.

4. According to the Final Prophecy of Mandos, after Melkor's defeat in the Dagor Dagorath, the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees. A Silmaril is, as has been said countless times, a "holy jewel" bound to the revival of the Two Trees at the end of all things.

5. Do you think when the Valar and Maiar are searching in vain for the third Silmaril, Gandalf will say, "Oh yeah, I almost forgot, it's buried in a crypt with a dead dwarf in Erebor several thousand mile east of here. I gave it back to him a while back. Ummm....why are all you guys glaring at me like that?"

To consider a Silmaril to be the Arkenstone not only strains credulity, it shatters it into tiny shards, fit to be broomed up and dumped in a waste bin.

1. Speculation on both sides

2. The Hobbit is written by Bilbo out of his understanding. As has been said chipping it out of volcanic rock will be sufficient explanation of this as misunderstood by Bilbo.

3. Since when has Gandalf been open about anything? His quest and mission was as a guide and his current task was keeping as many people alive as possible. Arguably getting The Lonely Mountain up and running would’ve been, to him, the best way to keep the thing safe. Also I’d say a quick text search of the Silmarillion only mentions Olorin a couple times, did he ever actually see or interact with them? He’s not omniscient.

4. “In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air,” it’s still in the Earth buried with Thorin. This doesn’t contradict the prophecy in any shape or form.

5. If they aren’t “searching in vain” then what does “lost” mean. If they supposedly know exactly where they are they’re not lost, just in storage. This interpretation completely contradicts getting rid of the things in the first place.

There’s plenty of reasons to doubt it’s a Silmaril. Plenty of reasons to believe it is. It only stretches Credulity if you’ve already set yourself dead against it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

1. Speculation on both sides

2. The Hobbit is written by Bilbo out of his understanding. As has been said chipping it out of volcanic rock will be sufficient explanation of this as misunderstood by Bilbo.

3. Since when has Gandalf been open about anything? His quest and mission was as a guide and his current task was keeping as many people alive as possible. Arguably getting The Lonely Mountain up and running would’ve been, to him, the best way to keep the thing safe. Also I’d say a quick text search of the Silmarillion only mentions Olorin a couple times, did he ever actually see or interact with them? He’s not omniscient.

4. “In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air,” it’s still in the Earth buried with Thorin. This doesn’t contradict the prophecy in any shape or form.

5. If they aren’t “searching in vain” then what does “lost” mean. If they supposedly know exactly where they are they’re not lost, just in storage. This interpretation completely contradicts getting rid of the things in the first place.

There’s plenty of reasons to doubt it’s a Silmaril. Plenty of reasons to believe it is. It only stretches Credulity if you’ve already set yourself dead against it.

1. Speculation? It is not speculation. Beleriand no longer exists. Drowned. Broken in the War of Wrath, and what little remained was destroyed by Eru. That whole drowning Numenor flap. Look it up. Also, traveling east from what once was Beleriand, you have to traverse a wide swathe of sea, pass beneath 2 mountain ranges, Ered Luin and Hythaiglir, and ford several rivers to reach Erebor. Jewels do not migrate.

2. So, in a matter of a few thousand years, a jewel suddenly gets a coating of volcanic rock? Well, if we are abandoning millions of years of geological record altogether, how fast did the Silmaril migrate to Erebor? Was it unladen? Did it stop for tea in Hobbiton, perhaps spend a weekend at a B&B in Bree?

3. We know quite a lot about Gandalf in Valinor. We know he was quite close to the Elves, for instance. And that Manwë himself requested Olórin to be one of the Istari. It's rather disingenuous to be dissing Gandalf at this point. But it amuses me to no end that folks will willfully argue that a Silmaril could be the Arkenstone, throw up nonsensical suppositions, and just as willfully ignore everything about the very nature of the Silmaril that would preclude it from being the Arkenstone, cut up and faceted and handled by dwarves and a precocious hobbit. Per the text:

"All who dwelt in Aman were filled with wonder and delight at the work of Fëanor. And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Manwë foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them."

"Like the crystal of diamonds it [a Silmaril] appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda."

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters."

"Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor.... Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendil shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth."

So Tolkien, who spent the better part of his life lavishing a great chronicle on the utmost importance of the holy jewels for the whole of Arda in the Quenta Silmarillion, suddenly pawns them off to a few shady dwarves in a second-rate backwater dwarven stronghold? One would think the migrating Silmaril would have taken up residence in a snazzier dwarven pad like Khazad-dûm (it would be on the way eastward on its long migration to Erebor).

Needless to say, if you wish to ignore the very nature of a Silmaril, its very specific story and attributes, how it effects those who are not meant or unworthy to touch it (and that would include Morgoth, Carcharoth, Maglor and Maedhros), and the finality by which Tolkien lays them to rest, then further discussion is fruitless.