The Letter of the Law

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That said, I believe the amazons only get a single passing mention, buried somewhere in a linguistic essay, so perhaps "they would have been mentioned" isn't necessarily true? .... It's entirely within reason that Tolkien would have restricted a description of Nazgul #5, the Sorceress of the Last Desert to an utterly unreadable scribble on the back of an envelope.

Not only is this entirely plausible, but I am now trying to wrap my head around the canonical implications of "Tolkien wrote this on a scrap of paper somewhere" but it is now lost. If it fills in a gap--or replaces some established element (say, the actual spelling isn't Maidros or Maedhros but McFeänos). Is the "true" canon the unknown fact or is it the textus receptus?

But that's really a question for another thread (this, to link but one)...

[Formendacil]

So, it's taken me a couple days, but I sat down and went looking for the phrase "it is said" in the Silmarillion, to give us some fodder for this thread, and here's the start of what I found. It goes right back to the beginning:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in the Ainulindalë

And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor"

For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwe knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh. And it is said indeed that, even as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi, so now for that time they forbore for the sake of the Hildor, the Aftercomers, the younger Children of Ilúvatar.

What I noticed with a couple of them, starting with this next one, is that after the "it is said" phrase, we get "but" or "yet" followed by the next clause--the narrator himself tells us the majority opinion and qualifies it:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Return of the Noldor"

It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan, to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and would come among them at times for common counsel. Yet he also was bound by the oath, though it slept now for a time.

Okay, the "but" here is a bit less of a contradiction of the factuality of the first statement--it isn't saying Turgon didn't name it, just that it was known in Sindarin by a different name:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Noldor in Beleriand"

But Turgon dwelt still for the most part in Nevrast, until it came to pass that at last the city was full-wrought, after two and fifty years of secrjet toil. It is said that Turgon appointed its name to be Ondolinde in the speech of the Elves of Valinor, the Rock of the Music of Water, for there were fountains upon the hill; but in the Sindarin tongue the name was changed, and it became Gondolin, the Hidden Rock.

In this case, the "but" actually introduces the "it is said"

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Noldor in Beleriand"

Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

Here's one for Urwen. (Also following the "introduced by the yet/but" pattern):

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of Maeglin"

Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eol were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin.

I wasn't looking for it, but I found a double-hearsay in this passage:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Coming of Men into the West"

Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Nom, that is Wisdom, in the language of that people, and after him they named his folk Nomin, the Wise. Indeed they believed at first that Felagund was one of the Valar, of whom they had heard rumour that they dwelt far in the West; and this was (some say) the cause of their journeying. But Felagund dwelt among them and taught them true knowledge, and they loved him, and took him for their lord, and were ever after loyal to the house of Finarfin.
Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled in tongues; and Felagund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted. It is said also that these Men had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them had learned much of their speech; and since all the languages of the Quendi were of one origin, the language of Beor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue in many words and devices.

And that's where I ran out of copy/paste energy. There are twenty more instances of "it is said" in the published Silm (including the "Akallabêth" and "Of the Rings of Power"--I just have other things to do with my life than copying over quotations all day!

Run free with the "ah, but it could be other things than what the people said" speculation!

[Galadriel55]

I'll leave the early It Is Saids to you, and wanna add a late one. This is something that came up on a different thread, and I will summarize it here. Basically, the marriage of Tuor and Idril is special, being one of the 3 Unions, and all 3 have one of the spouses being sundered from their kin. In the other two, the immortal wife becomes mortal. The Valar explicitly tell Luthien that they cannot keep Eru's gift from Beren. But Tuor, lucky dog, gets to live eternally with Idril and is not counted among Men! The situation also raised its own questions, e.g. where are they living, if they've never returned to ME nor ever reached Valinor?

Then, someone pointed out to me that this information is based on an It Is Said:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

So realistically? Tuor died, or both of them died. If it wasn't from the perils of the voyage, it was of old age. Whether or not Idril reached the Houses of Mandos is a different question, but no one in ME would know the answer anyways.

I am actually rather fond of an odea that allows to reconcile Tuor's rumoured immortality and Idril's absence with the reality of the fate of Men. On their voyage westwards, they get entangled in the enchantments of the Sundering Seas. These enchantments are known, among other things, to distort time and space, to use the SciFi terminology. Tuor and Idril find themselves trapped in a bubble that is severed from the flow of time. For a backstory, say the ship crashes into a small island and they can never leave, and time literally doesn't pass for them. Then, in whatever spacewarp magic is involves in the Sundering Seas and the Straight Road separates the island from being physically accessjble from either plane of reality. Tuor and Idril indeed find themselves alive and together, suspended between worlds, out of Time, living forever without violating the Gift or needing to arrive anywhere. Not sure if they would be conscious, probably not, but they would still fulfill the legend. After all, the suspended-state-living works for Pharazon, exceot here it's accidental and sort of a good thing.

So rather than debunk an It Is Said fact, I would much rather create a story to support it. A sleeping timeless couple, suspended in time and forever in love until the end of the world will reshake the planes of reality and they will come apart to rejoin their respective races.



While looking for that paragraph, I also noticed its neighbour:

Originally Posted by ibid

And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to the Valar of the need of the Elves; and he called on them to forgive them, and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils, wherein alone now bloomed the light of the Days of Bliss when the Two Trees still shone in Valinor. But Manwë moved not; and of the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell?

The wise have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon on their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perhaps even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the Valar themselves had made.

So first they say good stuff about Ulmo, because they like him. And then they say excuses about Earendil, because how dare they cast Manwe in a bad light. Of course he wasn't just being heartless and obstinate! Also, this is just very convenient build up to Earendil. Cirdan's and Turgon's messengers failed, Tuor failed, but Earendil will succeed!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am actually rather fond of an odea that allows to reconcile Tuor's rumoured immortality and Idril's absence with the reality of the fate of Men. On their voyage westwards, they get entangled in the enchantments of the Sundering Seas. These enchantments are known, among other things, to distort time and space, to use the SciFi terminology. Tuor and Idril find themselves trapped in a bubble that is severed from the flow of time. For a backstory, say the ship crashes into a small island and they can never leave, and time literally doesn't pass for them. Then, in whatever spacewarp magic is involves in the Sundering Seas and the Straight Road separates the island from being physically accessjble from either plane of reality. Tuor and Idril indeed find themselves alive and together, suspended between worlds, out of Time, living forever without violating the Gift or needing to arrive anywhere. Not sure if they would be conscious, probably not, but they would still fulfill the legend. After all, the suspended-state-living works for Pharazon, exceot here it's accidental and sort of a good thing.

So rather than debunk an It Is Said fact, I would much rather create a story to support it. A sleeping timeless couple, suspended in time and forever in love until the end of the world will reshake the planes of reality and they will come apart to rejoin their respective races.

I kind of like the idea, but it also horrifies me. Let say they are conscious and aware of their predicament. It seems like a fate akin to the one that befell Hurin. To sit and watch, but helpless to do any actual deed. Only in this case I guess they would be in total ignorance of what is happening anywhere, which I am not sure is preferable to the torment of Melkor.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I kind of like the idea, but it also horrifies me. Let say they are conscious and aware of their predicament. It seems like a fate akin to the one that befell Hurin. To sit and watch, but helpless to do any actual deed. Only in this case I guess they would be in total ignorance of what is happening anywhere, which I am not sure is preferable to the torment of Melkor.

Yeah, I think I prefer them to be in a sort of asleep-but-aware-of-each-other state, it seems the nicest. But even if they are conscious, it's still different from Hurin, who was experiencing every passing moment. If you are beyond time, how fast does time pass? How do you even experience consciousness? I don't know! Maybe the whole thing feels like a moment. Or maybe not. Maybe you don't feel the need to fill time with thought or action and just be there. Don't know!

[Formendacil]

Honestly, if we're coming up with alternate Tuor and Idril takes, I'm going to make a case for "Beren & Lúthien 2.0." If, as there seems to be some evidence, they are never seen again, in Middle-earth or Valinor, isn't the simplest explanation that... they're both dead?


After all, if each retained their own fate, even a dead-in-this-world Idril would go to the Halls of Mandos and so their ever-sundered end could become known. If they're still alive, then... where? Arda is not endless.

But what if they both shared the Fate of Men? That's what happens to the other "Big 3" Elf-Man couples: Lúthien and Arwen both give up the Fate of the Elves and join the Fates of Men. And there's enough stuff in the Athrabêth and around the Gift of Men to suggest that this is how things are slanted: it's better to counted among Men and share their fate.

Even with the half-Elven, until the case of Eärendil and Elwing, Tolkien says that the default situation is that the half-Elven share the fates of Men, suggesting that this is the default case (the dominant gene, so to speak). The Choice given the surviving Pereldar is a Gift--you can't go back and ask Dior, Eluréd, or Elurín what they'd have preferred, not least because they've already departed the cirlces of this world.

Therefore, it seems to me, if Idril and Tuor shared the same fate, it seems far more likely that Idril must have enjoyed the Fate of Lútien than that Tuor became the sole exception in the opposite direction.

[Morsul the Dark]

Sort of stealing from an old thread of mine on misunderstandings based on dialect.

Dwarves eat birthday cakes like biscuits.