Father-names among the Noldor

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galin

I assume you mean Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod) here.

My understanding is that the initial "Finwe" was added after the fact to emphasise his status as a High King (probably by his sons in Beleriand, as a counter to Fingolfin doing the same thing). Frankly we're lucky the others didn't do the same thing: "Finturgon! Your brother Finfingon has fallen, and you are now High King! After you will come Fingil-galad!" ^_~

Originally Posted by Galin

Well (not that you said otherwise) but going by Tolkien's latest know design, Artaher was moved down, so four in my opinion.

Yep, which actually makes more sense, since he's the one who doesn't quite fit the pattern. (Hilariously, it means Angrod half-named his son after his sister Artanis; weirdo.)

Originally Posted by Galin

Ingalaure rather (aka Inglor Felagund). Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.

-_-

Originally Posted by Galin

I think this story is outdated, though the names remain to protect the innocent

I think Tolkien threw up his hands in despair at these two, didn't he? But the idea that Maglor named them still stands, I think, which means "Hey look, elves!" is canon.

Originally Posted by Galin

It's also noted that Feanor begged Nerdanel that the Mother-names of his last two sons -- Ambarussa - should be different.

I can only imagine she reacted by just staring at him for over a minute, and then:

"Seriously???"

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

We're talking about the work of John Ronald Reuel, son of Arthur Reuel, brother of Hilary Arthur Reuel, father of John Francis Reuel, Michael Hilary Reuel and Christopher John Reuel - and, for crying out loud, he even named his daughter Priscilla Mary Anne Reuel! (It carries on in subsequent generations.) What did you expect?

In fairness, they really liked Mr Reuel. ^_^ But yes - the idea of inherited family names doesn't sound so strange from that perspective.

I guess we're lucky Elves didn't have a high childhood mortality rate, or else we'd doubtless have seen the other pre-modern practice of slapping the names of your dead kids onto the living ones. It makes family trees a lively affair, let me tell you.

hS

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

My understanding is that the initial "Finwe" was added after the fact to emphasise his status as a High King (probably by his sons in Beleriand, as a counter to Fingolfin doing the same thing).

I chose "Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod)" as the Sindarization doesn't match. It matches the Mother-name Findaráto. In other words, both these parts were tongue-in-cheek, using the Inglor Felagund scenario.


But my point with Feanor and Nerdanel was more serious. Deadly serious


And it's that if we use Of Naming among the Noldor from Laws and Customs (Morgoth's Ring), as I read it so far anyway, all of Feanor's sons can be distinguished early by their Father-names, and this could explain why he begged Nerdanel not to give his last two sons the same name . . .

. . . that is, Curufinwe did not name his sons Finwe soon after birth, but Nelyafinwe and so on, with Curufinwe (for Curufin) explained as above.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Could be worse- could have named every damn one of them Ptolemy, and all the girls Cleopatra.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

( . . . ) I think Tolkien threw up his hands in despair at these two, didn't he? But the idea that Maglor named them still stands, I think, which means "Hey look, elves!" is canon.

According to late texts though, the names Elros and Elrond were formed to recall the name of Elwing (Shibboleth)


Or (The Problem of Ros) Elwing named Elrond and Elros -- Elwing giving the former name to her son in memory of "the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond . . . "


In the earlier tale (1958, letter 211) Elrond was related to a primitive Elvish word for "cavern", with Elrond being found "within the cave" . . . in other words, a new meaning appears with the new, later story -- noting letter 345, 1972: Elrond "The Vault of Stars"

To The Problem of Ros again: "Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda, and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe . . .

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Galin

According to late texts though, the names Elros and Elrond were formed to recall the name of Elwing (Shibboleth)


Or (The Problem of Ros) Elwing named Elrond and Elros -- Elwing giving the former name to her son in memory of "the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond . . . "


In the earlier tale (1958, letter 211) Elrond was related to a primitive Elvish word for "cavern", with Elrond being found "within the cave" . . . in other words, a new meaning appears with the new, later story -- noting letter 345, 1972: Elrond "The Vault of Stars"

To The Problem of Ros again: "Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda, and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe . . .

-rond meant "vault, vaulted space, dome" or the like from very early. Whether Elrond referred to a vaulted vave or the vault of the firmament, the root remained the same. Cf. Hadhodrond, Nargothrond. Related is Nogrod.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

-rond meant "vault, vaulted space, dome" or the like from very early. Whether Elrond referred to a vaulted vave or the vault of the firmament, the root remained the same. Cf. Hadhodrond, Nargothrond. Related is Nogrod.

Yes the letter I looked up reads:

Elrond Elros *rondo was a primitive Elvish word for cavern. Cf. Nargothrond (fortified cavern by the R. Narog) Aglarond, etc.

And Tolkien goes on to say here that Elrond was found in a cave, with Elros found dabbling in the water -- in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance -- with -ros meaning "dew, spray (of fall or fountain".

The explanation intended at this point in time appears to relate to a "simple" cave. In the Etymologies scenario, the root ROD- "cave" produced Quenya and Noldorin words that had to do with "cave" or "hollow, cavernous" -- but in Ilkorin, a word "rond = domed roof. hence Elrond "vault of heaven"


Despite that -rond is generally more versatile, I mean that the meaning -- or perhaps better, Tolkien's gloss of the name for this specific character, changed, to go along with Elwing's naming. Or let's say, his focus shifted: despite the semantic relationship that hails back to a root, a natural cave is different from the dome of the firmament.

The Elwing scenario actually does "double-duty" in a sense, since the vault of heaven was reproduced in a cave in Elwe's halls.

Anyway, main point: Elwing named them