Father-names among the Noldor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galin · 08-05-2020, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

--(Ara)Finwe (aka Finarfin) . . .

I assume you mean Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod) here.

Quote:

had four or five kids, depending on where you count Orodreth.

Well (not that you said otherwise) but going by Tolkien's latest know design, Artaher was moved down, so four in my opinion.

Quote:

Their names? Findaráto . . .

Ingalaure rather (aka Inglor Felagund). Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.

:cough:

Quote:

---Finwe and Finwe - sorry, that's Third-Finwe and Loud-Finwe, or Maedhros and Maglor to you - found a couple of kids in a cave. "Hey, look," they said, "elves! Let's call them Elrond and Elros!" (Sure, that might be 'star'; that's not any better.)

I think this story is outdated, though the names remain to protect the innocent

Galadriel55 · 08-05-2020, 05:42 PM

So I have a question:

If a woodchuck can chuck wood, how many Finwes can a Finwe Finwe?

I am also imagining this scenario, which probably confirms exactly why Noldorin mothers named their kids separately:

Nerdanel: - Finwe!
*Voices from next door*:
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Mom?
- Honey?

Pitchwife · 08-06-2020, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galin

Indis preferred the Telerin-in-form Mother-name Findaráto for Arafinwe, Findaráto Sindarized in Middle-earth as Finrod, even though he stayed in Aman.

I don't think so. According to the Shibboleth, it was Finrod's [i.e. Felagund's] and Angrod's mother, Eärwen of Alqualonde, Finarfin's wife, who named them Findaráto, Angaráto in her native tongue (vs Quenya Artafindë, Artanga). Indis was a Vanya, why would she use Telerin forms?

Galin · 08-07-2020, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I don't think so. According to the Shibboleth, it was Finrod's [i.e. Felagund's] and Angrod's mother, Eärwen of Alqualonde, Finarfin's wife, who named them Findaráto, Angaráto in her native tongue (vs Quenya Artafindë, Artanga). Indis was a Vanya, why would she use Telerin forms?

Because she preferred the sound of Findaráto.

See HOME XV, or my post in the thread above, where this happened

"I chose "Finwe Arafinwe (aka Finrod)" as the Sindarization doesn't match. It matches the Mother-name Findaráto. In other words, both these parts were tongue-in-cheek, using the Inglor Felagund scenario."

Sorry to leady astray!

Pitchwife · 08-07-2020, 10:36 AM

Yeah sorry, I'd overlooked your 'tongue in cheek' comment to Hui above. But I still think Findaráto as a Mother-name for Arafinwë is untenable. On the other hand I could imagine Eärwen calling her hubby thus, and their children using the Sindarized form when talking to grand-uncle Thingol and his people.

By the way, if Felagund was renamed Inglor, what does that mean for Gildor Inglorion? Was he literally Felagund's son?

I rather liked the bit about Felagund not marrying because he foresaw his oath to Barahir and its fatal consequence (also Amarië).

That's the thing about Tolkien - you can't change a name without changing the story.

Galin · 08-07-2020, 10:48 AM

Felagund was Inglor Felagund according to the first edition -- well not exactly, as the name Inglor itself didn't appear there for him -- but first edition: Finrod was the father of Galadriel and Felagund < named Inglor Felagund in the Silmarillion. You probably know this . . .

. . . but anyway, above I was just playing with giving Finwe's son (Arafinwe) a Father-name with Finwe, who stayed in Aman, and yet keep a Sindarized "Finrod" (House of Finrod) in Middle-earth . . .

. . . although Tolkien would be less constrained than I am, if he had desired to keep the first edition idea and work out all the names.

Pitchwife · 08-07-2020, 02:05 PM

Actually Tolkien himself could be remarkably uninspired in his naming of minor characters - cf. Gamling and Ioreth, whose names literally mean Old Guy and Old Woman in Norse and Sindarin, respectively.

Galin · 08-07-2020, 02:39 PM

I smiled when I found that out (Gamling, Ioreth). Point of view, I guess. Also I like Tolkien's Noldorin/Eldarin naming customs, and don't find that it makes Noldorin fathers "terrible" at naming . . . although I'm not sure Huinesoron wrote that without a smile.

An idea I often run into online is that Elves don't repeat names! It's far more complicated than that, and in general . . . they do! It's interesting too, that while Feanor's last two sons called each other Ambarussa, others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa.

This is (in my opinion) good stuff folks!

08-05-2020, 05:42 PM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,518	So I have a question: If a woodchuck can chuck wood, how many Finwes can a Finwe Finwe? I am also imagining this scenario, which probably confirms exactly why Noldorin mothers named their kids separately: Nerdanel: - Finwe! Voices from next door: - Mom? - Mom? - Mom? - Mom? - Mom? - Mom? - Mom? - Honey? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 08-05-2020 at 05:49 PM.

08-07-2020, 10:36 AM	#5
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Yeah sorry, I'd overlooked your 'tongue in cheek' comment to Hui above. But I still think Findaráto as a Mother-name for Arafinwë is untenable. On the other hand I could imagine Eärwen calling her hubby thus, and their children using the Sindarized form when talking to grand-uncle Thingol and his people. By the way, if Felagund was renamed Inglor, what does that mean for Gildor Inglorion? Was he literally Felagund's son? I rather liked the bit about Felagund not marrying because he foresaw his oath to Barahir and its fatal consequence (also Amarië). That's the thing about Tolkien - you can't change a name without changing the story. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

08-07-2020, 10:48 AM	#6
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Felagund was Inglor Felagund according to the first edition -- well not exactly, as the name Inglor itself didn't appear there for him -- but first edition: Finrod was the father of Galadriel and Felagund < named Inglor Felagund in the Silmarillion. You probably know this . . . . . . but anyway, above I was just playing with giving Finwe's son (Arafinwe) a Father-name with Finwe, who stayed in Aman, and yet keep a Sindarized "Finrod" (House of Finrod) in Middle-earth . . . . . . although Tolkien would be less constrained than I am, if he had desired to keep the first edition idea and work out all the names. Last edited by Galin; 08-07-2020 at 11:11 AM.

08-07-2020, 02:05 PM	#7
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	Actually Tolkien himself could be remarkably uninspired in his naming of minor characters - cf. Gamling and Ioreth, whose names literally mean Old Guy and Old Woman in Norse and Sindarin, respectively. __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

08-07-2020, 02:39 PM	#8
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	I smiled when I found that out (Gamling, Ioreth). Point of view, I guess. Also I like Tolkien's Noldorin/Eldarin naming customs, and don't find that it makes Noldorin fathers "terrible" at naming . . . although I'm not sure Huinesoron wrote that without a smile. An idea I often run into online is that Elves don't repeat names! It's far more complicated than that, and in general . . . they do! It's interesting too, that while Feanor's last two sons called each other Ambarussa, others called them Minyarussa and Atyarussa. This is (in my opinion) good stuff folks!