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[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

FWIW, New Zealand has been confirmed as the location for principal filming.

Probably to be expected, given the PJ connection, the availability of WETA, and relatively cheap costs compared to Hollywood. I'm not however convinced how well it could pass for Numenor, though, as opposed to Eriador and Rohan/Gondor; Westernesse lay in subtropical latitudes.

I remember Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-Earth had Númenor somewhat north of the Girdle of Arda, but that seemed a bit too tropical for me. I picture it as looking like France or Spain.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I remember Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-Earth had Númenor somewhat north of the Girdle of Arda, but that seemed a bit too tropical for me. I picture it as looking like France or Spain.

I'm sure I remember one map showing it exactly on the equator. I have a horrible feeling it was...

... yeah, it was the 'Lungs' map. Let's forget that. ^_^;

Is there an actual source for the tropical/subtropical location? Logically speaking, Numenor should lie such that both Umbar and Vinyalonde are sensible landing points; the Fonstad map shows it south of both, and begs the question of why they wouldn't get their wood from those handy southerly forests.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Keep in mind that the bulk of the ultimate Numenorean colonies lay off-map in Harad; Umbar and Pelargir were the northernmost. As to why Aldarion originally landed in Lindon- well, besides the fact that one would want an established port for refit and resupply, not an uninhabited bay, it's also the case that the Numenoreans are stated to have been taught shipcraft and sailing "by the Eldar," which I expect means Cirdan's people rather than the occasional visitors from Eressea. So the route to Lindon was known and Aldarion may well have had Elvish navigators on his first voyage.

Why harvest timber and establish a logging port in Minhiriath? Probably because it was "uninhabited" in the usual imperialist meaning of the term (Eriador means, roughly, "empty land"); Harad was full of "civilized" peoples who likely would have objected rather violently to wholesale felling (those of Eriador did, too, but they couldn't do much about it). Moreover, Aldarion's voyages were to the northwest of Middle-earth, even if later mariners went much, much farther; and it would make sense that he was looking for a source of timber not far from his 'advance base' in Lindon without actually encroaching on Elvish lands; probably was pointed that way by Gil-Galad's folk.

Equatorial latitude: the Annals of Valinor state that Tun (later Tirion) is located on the "girdle of the earth." The maps associated with the Ambarkanta (mid-late 1930s, definitely after the Numenor legend was first created) show Taniquetil and the Bay of Elvenhome marked at or near the equator. Eressea is also on or near the equator; and Numenor was just within distant sight of Eressea (from the top of the Meneltarma, so say ~100 nautical miles).

One could also speculate about currents and prevailing winds; in the RW North Atlantic they run in a clockwise circle, so that ships returning to Europe from the West Indies would run up the American coast with the gulf stream and cross in northerly waters, and similarly outbound ships went southwards via the Canaries and Azores. Trying to make a beeline left you becalmed in the Sargasso Sea. HOWEVER- our ocean and atmospheric currents are products of the spinning of the spherical Earth, which wouldn't really be a thing before the Downfall.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Keep in mind that the bulk of the ultimate Numenorean colonies lay off-map in Harad; Umbar and Pelargir were the northernmost. As to why Aldarion originally landed in Lindon- well, besides the fact that one would want an established port for refit and resupply, not an uninhabited bay, it's also the case that the Numenoreans are stated to have been taught shipcraft and sailing "by the Eldar," which I expect means Cirdan's people rather than the occasional visitors from Eressea. So the route to Lindon was known and Aldarion may well have had Elvish navigators on his first voyage.

Why harvest timber and establish a logging port in Minhiriath? Probably because it was "uninhabited" in the usual imperialist meaning of the term (Eriador means, roughly, "empty land"); Harad was full of "civilized" peoples who likely would have objected rather violently to wholesale felling (those of Eriador did, too, but they couldn't do much about it).

This is good stuff. I love the idea that Harad was "the civilised world" at that time - after all, they hadn't just undergone a cataclysmic destruction of the western seaboard...!

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Equatorial latitude: the Annals of Valinor state that Tun (later Tirion) is located on the "girdle of the earth." Eressea is in the bay of Eldamar, necessarily also on or near the equator; and Numenor was just within distant sight of Eressea (from the top of the Meneltarma, so say ~100 nautical miles).

Um... the world is flat. ^_^ Eressea is visible from arbitrary distances, weather and the observer's visual acuity permitting. The top of the Meneltarma is presumably Pretty High, so I think the only limit can be haze/shadow - which in the Shadowy Sea, is magical rather than meteorological, so it's very difficult to calculate how far away you can still see through it from.

hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Eressea is visible from arbitrary distances, weather and the observer's visual acuity permitting. The top of the Meneltarma is presumably Pretty High, so I think the only limit can be haze/shadow - which in the Shadowy Sea, is magical rather than meteorological, so it's very difficult to calculate how far away you can still see through it from.

Wouldn't that presuppose a conscious allowance on the part of the Valar for Men to see "over the fence", as it were? Get a look at how the other half lives? If that was the case, it would seem the Valar either were deliberately baiting the Númenóreans, or were blissfully ignorant of the perils of being mortals among the immortal.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

And that's why well-to-do Numenoreans visited Dr. Henfanwa for a LASIK procedure at the Armenelos Eye Institute.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Assuming that Numenoreans have RW human vision or close to it (and they seem not to have Elvish eyes, since Aragorn is always using Legolas as his binoculars), then their angular resolution is approx one arc-minute or 1/60 of a degree. That's why you can't look up at the moon and see flags and old lunar rovers there, and why the military relies on radar to pick up approaching aircraft that the Mk 1 eyeball hasn't a chance of seeing before it's too late..

So, even if we assume absolutely clear air without haze or turbulence, the maximum distance at which an unaided human eye could pick out a tower of ~ 30m diameter would be around 100 kilometers.

I will accept your maths.

The source text is:

Originally Posted by Silm: Akallabeth

...at times, when all the air was clear and the sun was in the east, they would look out and descry far off in the west a city white-shining on a distant shore, and a great harbour and a tower. For in those days the Númenóreans were far-sighted; yet even so it was only the keenest eyes among them that could see this vision, from the Meneltarma, maybe, or from some tall ship that lay off their western coast as far as it was lawful for them to go.

So could everyone see the city? Assume it's a km across & 100km away, and you get a width of ~30 arc-minutes (half a degree). From the top of Meneltarma, that should be visible to almost everyone. A nice addition to the religious ceremonies. Then the keen-eyed could catch a glimpse of the tower.

This does mean that Eressea itself would be a major presence on the 'horizon' - it would be impossible to miss from anywhere on the slopes of Meneltarma! But I guess Numenor doesn't really have other mountains, so that's not necessarily a problem. (I am now imagining young Numenorean kids in the west climbing trees and insisting "I can totally see it! Wow, that tower's so tall!" and suchlike.)

So why couldn't they see Taniquetil? Surely the tallest mountain in the world would be... kind of hard to miss?

hS