Latest news on Amazon's "Lord of the Rings" series

[Morthoron]

I don't know if any of you were watching Game of Thrones, and I won't issue any spoilers, but...episode 5...wow. Ummm...that was...completely unnecessary.

And that should be a cautionary tale for this new Middle-earth monstrosity Amazon is erecting skyward like the tower of Babel. George RR Martin never finished his story, and the GoT franchise writers have seemed to throw caution to the wind and went off the deep end in a TV show that seemed to never have a deep end.

The Second Age Middle-earth is sparse on detail. The amount of detail required to build a story may well lead us in a direction none of us have any inclination to follow.

[Inziladun]

I'm not a devoted watcher of GOT, but I'm familiar enough with it to have indeed suspected that any Middle-earth based series might follow that template. No doubt it's been a resounding ratings success; why not stick with a winning formula, when they've no one with the Estate to reckon with?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I don't know if any of you were watching Game of Thrones, and I won't issue any spoilers, but...episode 5...wow. Ummm...that was...completely unnecessary.

And that should be a cautionary tale for this new Middle-earth monstrosity Amazon is erecting skyward like the tower of Babel. George RR Martin never finished his story, and the GoT franchise writers have seemed to throw caution to the wind and went off the deep end in a TV show that seemed to never have a deep end.

The Second Age Middle-earth is sparse on detail. The amount of detail required to build a story may well lead us in a direction none of us have any inclination to follow.

I would have to disagree: Ep 5 redeemed what till now has been a blah, predictable season. One of the great episodes of the whole series.

However, the GOT style would be COMPLETELY WRONG for Tolkien.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, the GOT style would be COMPLETELY WRONG for Tolkien.

Ominously, YouTube channels are now touting the coming series as a possible GOT successor.

Bad enough that in the same video they mention a Stephen King Dark Tower series and one based on H.P. Lovecraft, both of which I enjoy in the written form, but am rather skeptical of other "visions".

Curiously, they also mention a Narnia series. I've never been a fan, so that one doesn't have any impact on me personally.

[Rhun charioteer]

The Akallabeth has quite a lot of GOT esque elements if only by implications. However GOT’s style and thematic atmosphere do not fit Tolkien even in that context.

Thing is, Amazon wants to make the next GOT and will seek to emulate whatever elements of GOT real or perceived to have made it successful.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

Thing is, Amazon wants to make the next GOT and will seek to emulate whatever elements of GOT real or perceived to have made it successful.

Is there any hope that since GoT is commonly held to have ended on a sour note, that perhaps that will pour some cold water on Amazon wanting to pursue this enterprise too avidly?

Probably not.

[Huinesoron]

Tom Shippey on the limitations of the series.

There's a clump of interesting questions and responses at the beginning.

Originally Posted by How so?

It is difficult because the Second Age kind of “stopped” twice. Once with the Fall of Númenor and then, about 150 years later, with the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron. The end of the Second Age on a map looks about the same as the beginning of the Third Age in terms of place names, coastline or border lines. In addition, the difference to the middle of the Second Age is already much greater. Númenor is still listed on the map, the place names are different, we are literally before the transformation of the world by Ilúvatar.

It will be of great importance for the series when exactly the plot takes place, at which point in Middle-earth history something happens. This was one of our difficulties when creating a map for the Second Age, because you have to determine very precisely what date this map should be from. Tolkien wrote some of it down, but as far as the Second Age goes, the information we have is a three-page timeline in the appendices to the Lord of the Rings and the List of Kings of Númenor and a little more material in the Unfinished Tales, but that’s about all.

It sounds like the map is specifically tuned to the date of the series, so the presence of both Lond Daer and Ost-in-Edhil implies they're starting early, perhaps as early as Aldarion himself.

It's also notable that Shippey mentions the Appendices here; more on that in a minute.

Originally Posted by So does Amazon have a free hand in the interpretation?

Amazon has a relatively free hand when it comes to adding something, since, as I said, very few details are known about this time span. The Tolkien Estate will insist that the main shape of the Second Age is not altered. Sauron invades Eriador, is forced back by a Númenorean expedition, is returns to Númenor. There he corrupts the Númenoreans and seduces them to break the ban of the Valar. All this, the course of history, must remain the same. But you can add new characters and ask a lot of questions, like: What has Sauron done in the meantime? Where was he after Morgoth was defeated? Theoretically, Amazon can answer these questions by inventing the answers, since Tolkien did not describe it. But it must not contradict anything which Tolkien did say. That’s what Amazon has to watch out for. It must be canonical, it is impossible to change the boundaries which Tolkien has created, it is necessary to remain “tolkienian”.

So Amazon are being told to not change a single word of Tolkien, but to work in the gaps. That's a lot more strict than the movies were, but with a much less explored setting. It may argue against them doing more than touching on Aldarion and Erendis, since they were written out in semi-full, and so would be more difficult to work with.

Originally Posted by Does the Tokien Estate have a veto on changes?

Yes, the Tolkien Estate keeps a very careful eye on everything and is quite capable of saying no. They retain a veto over everything that concerns Tolkien.

Am I wrong in thinking this is a very heartening statement? 'The Tolkien Estate' in this context probably doesn't include Christopher (resigned as director in 2017, though he is still literary executor), but is still very much in the family. It's always possible Priscilla doesn't care, though.

Originally Posted by What about the First and Third Ages?

The First and Third Ages are “off-limits”, you can’t have the First Age. Events could be mentioned at the most if they explain the events of the Second Age. But if it is not described or mentioned in the Lord of the Rings or in the appendices, they probably cannot use it. So the question is to what extent they may hint at events that took place, for example, in the First Age, but still continue to affect the Second Age. There are several maps authorized by Tolkien, not just the ones we’re are familiar with, and some of those maps have places on them which are not in the other maps. But if Tolkien authorized them then that’s okay. So it’s it’s a bit of a minefield. You have to tread very carefully but at the same time there is quite a lot of scope for interpretation and free invention.

This is why I highlighted the Appendices earlier: 'the Third Age is off limits' implies Amazon aren't allowed to use anything from the Zaentz rights, but the Appendices are included in that (hence Gandalf's meanderings in The Hobbit XVIII: On A Path In Mirkwood). So either we don't fully understand the rights situation, or some negotiation has been taking place, and will likely continue to do so.

There is a video introducing some of the team behind the show; it doesn't exactly grab my attention, but someone might see something exciting. They show John Howe sketching what could be a shoreline or a rockface, and Kate Hawley (costumes) working on this:



(Heavily skewed and then repaired.)

My guess is that it's probably a sketch of the interviewer. It certainly doesn't seem to hold any details. ^_^

hS

[Inziladun]

If characters are the main avenue open for original development, I have to wonder if they're going to want to impart convictions and motivations that, while recognizable to us today, would be out of phase with Tolkien's established "worldviews" for his creations.