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04-15-2019, 10:54 AM | #81 |
Spirit of Nen Lalaith
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I just had a stray thought: what if Gurthang/Anguirely were truly evil? I mean, their maker and all three of their subsequent owners met tragic ends....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-15-2019, 04:07 PM | #82 | |
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I keep hoping that someone uncovers an old shipping trunk, under some clutter in an overgrown garden shed in Tolkien's old home, and finds an original, 300 page manuscript by JRR, entitled, The Adventures of Cirdan.
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04-15-2019, 04:29 PM | #83 | |
Spirit of Nen Lalaith
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I am also hoping to receive more tales about my favorites - specifically Lalaith and Maeglin. They are barely mentioned at all, and then they were both killed off. This injustice needs to be fixed ASAP! (It'd probably never happen, though, and so I will turn to fanfiction....)
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-15-2019, 05:45 PM | #84 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Maeglin, though, is a much more complex character while living, and I agree that he could be more fleshed out.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 03:25 AM | #85 | |||
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The question is, does Anguirel share this trait? That depends on whether putting malice and his heart into the swords was intentional. There's nothing to indicate that Anglachel was forged with the intent of paying it to Thingol, so it might well be similar to its mate, yes. Speaking of paired swords... does anyone have any thoughts on what this concept of mated pairs of weapons actually... means? You've got Anglachel and Anguirel, and then Glamdring and Orcrist... is it just a super fancy way of saying they were forged together? Or is there something more to it? Quote:
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04-16-2019, 03:36 AM | #86 | |
Spirit of Nen Lalaith
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Not necessarily. Like I said, Fall of Gondolin book came out.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 03:46 AM | #87 |
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Yeah... unfortunately there's not really new material in there. It's possible that the 'evolution of the story' section has some, but the bulk of it is just the versions told in the Book of Lost Tales, 1930s Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales.
Oh, but you said you've not read HoME, so yes! The Fall contains quite a lot of M[a]eglin, along with a heck of a lot of details about Gondolin itself. You'll like it. hS |
04-16-2019, 03:57 AM | #88 | |
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Of course there would be. He is the main reason it happened. And that's what I'm counting on. It would probably be a while before it's translated into my language, though.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 04:01 AM. |
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04-16-2019, 04:02 AM | #89 |
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If Idril is the big good of FoG, does that make M[a]eglin big bad? Or does that 'honor' still fall to Morgoth?
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-16-2019, 05:56 AM | #90 | |
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Ultimately, the hero of the story still winds up being Tuor, while Morgoth remains as the ultimate villain. But their actions are enabled and pushed forward by the other two. hS |
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04-16-2019, 06:02 AM | #91 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Do you find that Maeglin's story and role seems to resemble that of Gollum?
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04-16-2019, 06:04 AM | #92 | |
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 06:14 AM | #93 |
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I think so. Their actions led to good things. Without Maeglin, War of Wrath wouldn't have happened. Without Gollum, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-16-2019, 06:49 AM | #94 | |
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I was also thinking about their position and eventual choices. Alienated from their society (to different degrees, of course), hiding away from the world, lusting after an unattainable object, betraying the only other thing that matters in order to satisfy the lust by willingly going over to the enemy, eventually dying in a desperate bid for their desire.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 07:18 AM | #95 | |
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I suppose that's true, though there are differences. One lusted after another person, the other lusted after an object. One committed suicide, the other was murdered.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 07:25 AM | #96 |
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'Murder' usually implies you're not in the middle of trying to kill your murderer... They both died by getting into a fight at the top of a cliff and winding up going over the edge.
The biggest difference, really, is that Gollum didn't go over to the Enemy. He gave up information under torture, but remained a free agent afterwards. Maeglin, meanwhile, not only didn't need to be tortured, but ended up actively working to weaken Gondolin for Morgoth's attack. hS |
04-16-2019, 07:33 AM | #97 | |
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For a second, I thought you were implying that Tuor fell off the cliff too...Then I realized you meant Gollum.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 07:39 AM | #98 | |
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Most of the fanfictions I've read go with the idea that Tuor actively pushed/threw Maeglin off the cliffside. (As in, physically lifting him up and chucking him over the edge)
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 07:57 AM | #99 | |
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Which is still part of the fight that Maeglin started. Killing in battle is not really murder - especially when it's done in defense of yourself and your wife and kid.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 10:11 AM | #100 | |
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Self-defense is still technically murder, despite being excusable. See it for yourself: This is what it looked like from Maeglin's perspective.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 10:20 AM. |
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04-16-2019, 10:22 AM | #101 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Or, how about: when you get into a fight you hope to win but you also accept the possibility that you lose? What do you want - for Maeglin to be allowed to initiate a match but without fear of consequences? The possible consequences are the same for both parties.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
04-16-2019, 10:27 AM | #102 | |
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I am not saying that there shouldn't be consequences. I am saying death is too extreme of a consequence. Besides, I have always found bad guys more interesting than good guys and goody-two-shoes characters. Forgive me for being upset that one of my favorite characters died. :c I especially like it when bad guys turned over a new leaf. That is what should have happened here too, imho.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 10:35 AM. |
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04-16-2019, 11:52 AM | #103 | ||
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He didn't. He went after her - despite her being married to someone else - and while trying to abduct her, also did his best to kill her son and erase the tangible evidence of that marriage. Quote:
And that's okay! Evil characters can be fun (evil people, not so much). They can be tragic. Gollum proves that we can very much like reading them. But in Middle-earth, with Tolkien writing it, they also eventually - sometimes very eventually - either are redeemed, or get their comeuppance. Maeglin made the choice to be irredeemable. His death was a direct result of that. (Also, practically: what else could Tuor have done? They could hardly drag him with them through the secret tunnel and up the mountains, and letting an enemy go free during a battle is a great way to get stabbed in the back. I suppose he could have crippled him and left him to burn with the city - but would that really be better?) hS |
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04-16-2019, 11:53 AM | #104 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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But I don't think Maeglin's end was extreme. Firstly, regardless of whether he deserved punishment for betrayal, he engaged in a fight with Tuor. There's a certain understanding, a social contract of sorts, that in a fight physical damage is not only acceptable but expected. In a life and death fight, death is predictable. And note that Maeglin initiates the personal conflict: he has the choice to take that risk or leave it; Tuor, as the receiver, does not have the same choice. You wouldn't say that Eowyn murdered a Nazgul, because murder is not a great word choice in the context of battles. Moreover, I still argue that if Maeglin's treason was known before the Fall, he might have been tried and executed. There's a chance that if he repented he could have been used to save the people living in the city by misinforming Morgoth or helping evacuate or something, but at least as much chance of being executed foe high treason. After all, what he did was the worst possible thing a citizen of Gondolin could do. So I don't think it's an unfair end for him either. Edit: crossed with Hui.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 11:56 AM | #105 | |
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They could have chained him or something. P.S: You up for making a new riddle?
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 02:18 PM | #106 |
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Not really. 1. No time, city is in chaos and they need to flee, and 2. Again, the two possible ooutcomes of that are either giving him back to the enemy or a slow and painful death. I think the most just option would have been a trial, but that wasn't possible when the treachery was revealed.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
04-16-2019, 02:29 PM | #107 | |
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Depends on what such a trial would entail. And you think his canonical death wasn't slow or painful? Striking the rock thrice and then gettin' burned seems both slow and painful from where I stand....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 02:31 PM | #108 | |
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There is also a quote from another book, which is as follows: 'When an individual takes it upon themselves to be a judge, jury and executioner, they become too dangerous to continue in society.'
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 03:17 PM. |
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04-16-2019, 03:07 PM | #109 | |
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hS |
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04-16-2019, 03:10 PM | #110 |
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So did Tuor....
(Also, way to turn my own argument against me...)
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 03:17 PM. |
04-16-2019, 03:42 PM | #111 |
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So did Eowyn, when she murdered the incapacitated Witch-king for threatening Theoden. In fact, I'm pretty sure every member of the Fellowship kills someone at some point (Moria, if nowhere else).
I think what you're really saying is that you wish Maeglin hadn't had to die, because you like the kind of stories Tolkien could have built around his character. I get that! I feel the same way about Finrod, who would have made the Nirnaeth and War of Wrath much more interesting to read about. But for both of them, in terms both of the narrative structure and of their characters as written, their deaths were necessary - Maeglin to bring the tale of Gondolin to a close, Finrod to show the cost of Beren's quest. Fanfic can save them - but most fanfic doesn't have the same continent-spanning epochal scope as The Silmarillion. hS |
04-16-2019, 03:46 PM | #112 | |
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But none of them killed a supposed ally.....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 03:49 PM | #113 |
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And, also, look at this image again.
You might see a murderer here, but I see someone who is afraid out of their wits.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-16-2019, 03:58 PM | #114 |
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But then again, you're probably correct. Every single characters I had liked to any degree was deaded or close to it. All in the name of wrapping up or advancing the plot. And this isn't limited to just Tolkinese characters either. And people think I am silly for being upset over fictional characters. :c
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
04-16-2019, 04:18 PM | #115 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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But I don't think that picture gives a good and balanced view. For instance, in my mind I see a desperate and terribly frightened Idril and Earendil, not the pair calmly watching over Tuor's shoulder. Also, falling and dying are both terrifying things, which gives the possibility of the picture's interpretation. However, just a moment before the fall, Maeglin's expression could easily have been that of mad fury, and perhaps that was still his expression as he fell - that's left up to us, and I leave the degree of his madness an open question. So no, I will not judge the story differently based on this picture.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-16-2019, 04:27 PM | #116 | |
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Well, then you best hope I get my hands on that book asap, because as it stands, this is my POV, and the only way it can change is if details from that book cause it to change.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. |
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04-16-2019, 04:32 PM | #117 |
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Nothing wrong with standing firm in your pov, as long as you can reasonably argue your side and hear arguments from other sides. It's fun to debate things, and the point is not to convince the most people to agree with you but to present things so that they're seen in a different light. I still maintain my general view that what happened to Maeglin wasn't unreasonable, but maybe as a result of this thread I'll ljke him a little better.
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04-16-2019, 04:40 PM | #118 | |
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And while I can see that his death wasn't unreasonable, I still wish it didn't have to happen. Because as weird as it seems, I like him. Possibly because I see him as a kindred spirit of sorts. I know how it feels to be all alone. To hope for something that is beyond your reach. To see the people you trusted and cared about - people who you thought cared about you in turn - abandon you and then move on like you never mattered to them in the first place.
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-16-2019 at 04:44 PM. |
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04-16-2019, 05:25 PM | #119 | |
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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04-17-2019, 02:15 AM | #120 | |
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Well, I am an oddball too, so thanks for proving my point.... Does this mean someone would kill me too in the future? By throwing me off a cliff? I knew my fear of heights had to come from somewhere. Maybe I'm his reincarnation? (or his descendant) Also, our given names both begin with M. Coincidence? I think not....
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Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 04-17-2019 at 02:18 AM. |
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