Celebrimbor

[Galin]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there.

I don't understand, doesn't the Olórin version take away the problem Findegil noted?

Findegil wrote: The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar?

The "Elessar returned" version states that: "And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great; and they had long speech together."

But when's one a time? If the Maia arrives in the Second Age here, we have roughly 1,590 years before the Three are made, and around year 1600, Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron, leaving the Three arguably unsafe to employ until Isildur takes the One in year 3,441.

Or do these windows not work due to some chronology already decided upon?

[gondowe]

In one of the texts of the Istari is said
"Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey.... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained,..."
This is ( for me ) a good reason to think that the Olorin of the Elessar text could be an Olorin of the pre One Ring Second Age.
But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Anyway I prefer the version of Enerdhil.

And anyway I gave the Elessar story as a separate text, as a General note at the end of the Third TftE Volume (Fourth volume of The Thain Book), and I conserved both stories maintaining the ambiguous
"and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone."
The only part I inserted in the narrative was the first part:

There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, ... This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast..."

And

"And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil ..... So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth"

into the Narn-en-El text.

Greetings

[Galin]

Originally Posted by gondowe

(...) But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Indeed both versions of the Elessar tale at least appear to have Galadriel in Greenwood, and the first edition puts Celeborn there (although granted, this detail was omitted in the second edition).

According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.

Still, in general I agree there might be some problems tying together a chronology of Galadriel's movements in the Second Age. Author-published text gives little enough to go on, and in my personal opinion, Concerning Galariel and Celeborn is a dubious text with respect to a few matters.

I'm not sure what the folks engaged in this project have already decided upon regarding Galadriel's movements, and I must admit, I haven't tried to squeeze Greenwood into the picture...

... or my picture anyway!

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Galin

According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.

Yes is true, what I mean is that it must be necesary to make clear that the wood was part of a whole. If you know what I mean.

Greetings

[Galin]

O, I C

"oh, I see"

[Findegil]

The project has not yet discussed Galadriels and Celeborns movements in the Second and Third Age (or even at the end of the First Age). But that is one of the important points we have to do soon as it seems.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Now as we have discussed the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Second Age and earlier, we have to come to some conclusion here.

As we have rejected the Galadriel sailing by ‘her own’ ship to Middel-earth, we have to discard text B that made Celebrimbor an Teler. We might speculate that his mother was of Telerin origin, but have a statement in text D that we have taken up in our version that she returned with following of Finarfin to Aman. However that might be, both text B and D build up a first connection between Celebrimbor and the House of Finarfin.
Form this I would even speculate that he did not take ship with the Feanorians but crossed the ice with the host of Fingolfin and Finrod. But we do not have to specify this.

Text D that has the highest priority beside A to which it corresponds nicely makes a soujuorn of Celebrimbor in Gondolin impossible (he is to escape from Nargothrond, so he can not enter Gondolin at such a late time).

Now we have to deal with text E and F under principal 6, which means we can use them und must edit them to agree with the sources of higher priority.

I suppose to change text E in the following way:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. He was of Noldorin origin, and one of the survivors of {Gondolin}[Beleriand], where he had been one of {Turgon's}the greatest artificers - but he had thus acquired some taint of pride and an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts.

Thus we would minimally change the source text and render it rather in the direction of ambiguity instad of to be specific.

Text F is more difficult. Up to know we did not include much of it. As Enerdhil is in the endnote to the text replaced by Celebrimbor, I don’t think we can us Enerdhil. The only principal that would allow that is Principal 2.b declaring that note a proposed change that is not workable for as. But even so an simple exchange of the names is not enough, I think we managed in the past much more substantial changes. The simplest solution is that as in text E we should avoid to specify where Celebrimbor made the first Elessar. And since it is clear that the place can not be Gondolin, but still the stone must be given to Idril the time for the making of the stone is before the Turgon left Vinyamar. Therefore I would put the first part it as a separate paragraph at the end of the chapter 19 Of the Noldor in Beleriand and would edit is thus:[quote]TBG-07<The Elessar There was in TBG-08{Gondolin}[Beleriand] a jewel-smith named {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor], the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor. {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] loved all green things that grew, and his greatest joy was to see the sunlight through the leaves of trees. And it came into his heart to make a jewel within which the clear light of the sun should be imprisoned, but the jewel should be green as leaves. And he made this thing, and even the Noldor marvelled at it. For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt. This gem {Enerdhil}[Celebrimbor] gave to Idril the TBG-08{King's }daughter of Turgon, and she wore it upon her breast TBG-09{; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin}.>

In addition I observed that we might have put not enough of text F into the chapter 34 Of the Voyage of Eärendil.
First I would like to use what we left out above in the scene of Idril giving the stone to her son:

VE-07 In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him <TE-C and Ulmo's conches far out west {over the sea} {call}called him louder and louder>, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship {Eärrámë}[Eärámë], Sea-wing, <TE-D with white sails>. <TE-E One evening <TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him> and he {calls}called {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and they {go}went to the shore. There {is a skiff}[was Eärámë]. {Tur}[Tuor and Idril] {bids}bade farewell to {Eärendel}[Eärendil] and {bids}bade him thrust it off. <EL {she}Idril wore {it}the Elessar upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. {And}But before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: ‘The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.’> {and with Idril he}Then they set sail <TY (and some say Voronwë with them)> into the sunset and the West. ...

Then later when Eärendil starts on his journey we should add another part.

VE-07.6 <Ros Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the Throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold of Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,[footnote to the text: Menelrond: 'heaven-dome'.] because by the arts and aid of Melian its high arched roof had been adorned with silver and gems set in the order and figures of the stars in the great Dome of {Valmar}[Valimar] {(21)} in Aman, whence Melian came.>
VE-07.7<The Elessar And indeed at Sirion's Haven there were many hurts to heal both of Men and Elves, and of beasts that fled thither from the horror of the North; and while Eärendil dwelt there they were healed and prospered, and all things were for a while green and fair. But when Eärendil began his great voyages upon the Sea he wore the Elessar upon his breast, for amongst all his searchings the thought was always before him: that he might perhaps find Idril again; and his first memory of Middle-earth was the green stone above her breast, as she sang above his cradle while Gondolin was still in flower.>VE-07.8 <QS77 Yet Eärendil could not rest, and his voyages about the shores of the Hither Lands eased not his unquiet. Two purposes grew in his heart, blended as one in longing for the wide Sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore, and bring ere he died the message of Elves and Men to the Valar in the West, that should move their hearts to pity for the sorrows of Middle-earth.

And last but not least we should add a sentence about the Elessar being removed from Middle-earth:

VE-11.03 And Elwing answered: 'Then shall our paths be sundered for ever. Nay, all thy perils I will take on myself also!' And she leaped into the white foam and ran towards him; but {Eärendel}[Eärendil] was sorrowful, for he deemed that they would now both die ere many days were past. And there they bade farewell to their companions and were taken from them for ever. VE-11.033<The Elessar So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth.>
And {Eärendel}[Eärendil] said to Elwing: 'Await me here; for one only may bear the messages that I am charged with'; ...

At last I want to discuss the second part of [b]The Elessar[b] here. I have to say that I now lean to Galins argument: Olorin could have brought the Stone back, before he was chosen as one of the Istari. And this fits very well with the time line I created:
- Galadriel having founded Eregion made contact to Lorinand, which at this time included the Forst east of Anduin were later Dol Guldur was.
- She was their either visited by Olorin and given the Elessar of old or
- She from their visited Eregion to talk to Celebrimbor initiating his making of the second Elessar.
- When Olorin made his way back to Valinor he was just in time to enter the council of the Valar that chose the Istari.

The end note to text F can be raised as a strong argument against this. But still I feel that we should at least introduce some doubt about the story of the second Elessar. This is a text where JRR Tolkien himself used a strong ambiguity and even if it seems that he had made up his mind when he wrote the endnote, it is not so clear to me that he would have followed that note would he have re-written the full text.

Respectfully
Findegil