Balrog and The One Ring

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

An interesting point. Personally I prefer an incredibly arrogant Sauron who thought that his old master was a failure, that God was "dead" (or at least disinterested) and saw himself as the only person in existence with the right approach to, and way of thinking about, the world.

That might be a personal thing, however. I find Sauron a little more interesting than Morgoth (although I find both characters interesting, especially the differences between them).

There are more than a few commentaries that point out that Sauron was always the more proactive of the characters.

Tom Shippey even goes as far as to say that it might have actually been Sauron who ran the nuts-and-bolts operations of Morgoth; that Morgoth was so consumed by Rage and Hatred that it caused an almost paralysis, and that it was left to Sauron to conduct the day-to-day business.

I also read a paper that suggested it was Sauron who did the actual work of "corrupting" the Elves and Humans to create Orcs, and Dragons (and other monsters) from the pre-existing creatures or beings of Arda. I found it to be pretty convincing.

But I still don't think that is contradictory to having Sauron remain Faithful to Morgoth.

As Tolkien points out, Sauron is well aware of the cosmology of Arda, and as such would know that ultimately his goals were only possible because of Morgoth's Rebellion; that ultimately his own power(s) were caught up in the existence of Morgoth.

Unfortunately, though, this is largely a narrative issue which Tolkien did not address (Curses!!!), and in terms of the unfolding of Plot, there exist many different interpretations that could be taken.

Where I disagree with Sauron "rebelling" against Morgoth is that it is hung too closely upon Saruman's Rebellion from the Istari, and thus the theme that so many have of Evil being its own Undoing.

That is a theme that largely exists in only one place (The Lord of the Rings), and in a character who has a very conflicted loyalty and set of goals (The goals for Saruman remain the same, they just become perverted by his study of evil). Sauron himself isn't conflicted in that regard, and his goals remain the same goals they have been pretty much since the First Age, if not before. Any "perversion" of Sauron occurred in the countless millennia prior to the Third Age, and we see no deviation from his prior goals.

I just think people are too quick to make everything an "Evil being its own undoing" event, when those were rare exceptions and not the rule (which was that Evil makes things vastly worse than they were previously).

Another interesting point, although as a means of controlling minds (as opposed to Morgoth's interest in dominating matter) I find it to have its own significance in terms of the themes it represents.

Is it worth considering the notion that as Morgoth dispersed himself into the world he actually lost control of that "evil"? It seems to me that was the case, that "evil" came from Melkor but "Morgoth" the person no longer actually had that much control over it. It might work in his favour – but it might not, hence evil's tendency to be self-destructive.

Again.... I think that is looking too hard for an "Evil is its own undoing" moment. That Morgoth was consumed by his Hatred and Rage is something we have no shortage of evidence for (and thus was usually a malevolent force off-stage). Even Tolkien comments on this at multiple points.

But Morgoth never became impotent, even when thrust outside of the Circles of the World. Tolkien points out that he retained an ability to influence the World to Evil, just by his Shadow and Thought.

MB