Balrog and The One Ring

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

We have to remember that Sauron continued to Worship Morgoth as the Rightful Ruler of Arda. See his behavior at leading Númenóre into Morgothism, and his perverting Humanity after their awakening to the same thing as described in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Sauron also established such Worship of Morgoth among the Easterlings and Haradrim. Thus Sauron remained "Loyal" even though he sought to establish Temporal Dominion over the peoples of Middle-earth (recall from Morgoth's Ring that Morgoth's goal was dominion over the physical realm of Arda - the "stuff" out of which "creation" was made, rather than dominion over the people - he seems to have delegated this to Sauron, who was more focused upon the dominion over other's Will than was Morgoth).

The question would then be:

"How Loyal to Morgoth would the Balrog have remained?"

My personal feeling is that the Balrog would have little personal interest in the One Ring, as the Balrogs seemed to have cared more about chaotic violence and destruction than they did for dominating the wills of others.

And thus the Balrog would likely believe that delivering the One Ring to Sauron would best further the Balrog's personal goals of sowing chaos and destruction, and of seeking for the return of Morgoth from beyond the Walls of Night.

Speculation is nice, but in this case the speculation is based on the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath, something that a Balrog hiding in the nether regions of Moria since the end of the 1st Age would know absolutely nothing about. For all the Balrog knew, Morgoth was gone for good, banished with the terrible retribution of the Valar (hence the Balrog hiding in fear of being found out).

And what did Sauron know about the Second Prophecy, or care for that matter? Using Morgoth as a prop to build a religion around would certainly be easier selling to the Numenoreans than erecting totems to himself, a prisoner of Numenor. No, by the time of the War of the Ring, it would seem Sauron's only interest was Sauron, of regaining the One Ring, and his mastery of Middle-earth, figuring that the Valar had abandoned the world once Morgoth was imprisoned, and imprisoned with a finality that was much different than when Morgoth was a hostage in Valinor (and Sauron remained the good servant, ruling in his master's stead).

As far as the Balrog and the One Ring, there is zero information that I can find. Who knows what it would have done? Rather like Smaug devouring Bilbo and having access to the One Ring, I can't see a being of such power and evil intent simply surrendering it to Sauron. Power begets power and greed overpowers all.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Speculation is nice, but in this case the speculation is based on the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath, something that a Balrog hiding in the nether regions of Moria since the end of the 1st Age would know absolutely nothing about. For all the Balrog knew, Morgoth was gone for good, banished with the terrible retribution of the Valar (hence the Balrog hiding in fear of being found out).

And what did Sauron know about the Second Prophecy, or care for that matter? Using Morgoth as a prop to build a religion around would certainly be easier selling to the Numenoreans than erecting totems to himself, a prisoner of Numenor. No, by the time of the War of the Ring, it would seem Sauron's only interest was Sauron, of regaining the One Ring, and his mastery of Middle-earth, figuring that the Valar had abandoned the world once Morgoth was imprisoned, and imprisoned with a finality that was much different than when Morgoth was a hostage in Valinor (and Sauron remained the good servant, ruling in his master's stead).

As far as the Balrog and the One Ring, there is zero information that I can find. Who knows what it would have done? Rather like Smaug devouring Bilbo and having access to the One Ring, I can't see a being of such power and evil intent simply surrendering it to Sauron. Power begets power and greed overpowers all.

In Morgoth's Ring, and elsewhere (I will have a look around), Tolkien points out that No Ainur may be killed, nor their life ended by any but Eru himself.

Both the Balrog and Sauron would know this was well, both being products of the "Mind of God." So both would well know that Morgoth remained "Alive" (or intact), and simply beyond the "Circles of the World."

Both would know that Morgoth (and indeed many of his original Servants and Slaves) had previously travelled outside the Circles of the World into the Void, and returned (Morgoth even hiding there for a time from the Valar).

The only difference at this point would be his binding by the chain Angainor (and perhaps blindfolding and gagging, as he was when first brought into the Ring of Doom after his first capture by the Valar).

And they would know that the world was still Marred by his effused presence within the World as a consequence of the Ainulindalë.

So his returning to within the Circles of the World should not be such an outlandish thing to seek.

If Sauron was so certain that his Lord was gone forever, he would not have set-up the Númenóreans to the Worship of Morgothism, but would instead have made himself the object of veneration.

In the Metaphysics Tolkien imagines for Middle-earth, he actually uses the words "Luciferian," "Devil," and "Satan" to describe Morgoth.

In Christian Mythology, the Servants and Slaves of Satan do not abandon Satan, even though they know that Satan is trapped within Hell until the "End-of-Times" (In Dantë, Satan is trapped, frozen within the Ice of the Ninth Circle of Hell). Yet the Demons who remain "free" to travel between Hell and the Earth continue to serve their Master, even though he remains trapped.

Why would Middle-earth's "Satan" and Daemonic Servants have different roles?

And there does seem to be a somewhat rigid authoritarian hierarchy within Morgoth's Servants and Slaves.

As for what they would have done with the One Ring....

I don't know, exactly.

But I suspect that the Balrog's desires, goals, and intentions are different from Sauron's, regardless of whatever the relationship to the One Ring might be for either.


MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

in Morgoth's Ring, and elsewhere, Tolkien points out that No Ainur may be killed, nor their life ended by any but Eru himself.

Both the Balrog and Sauron would know this was well, both being products of the "Mind of God."


But there does seem to be a somewhat rigid authoritarian hierarchy within Morgoth's Servants and Slaves.

As for what they would have done with the One Ring....

I don't know, exactly.

But I suspect that the Balrog's desires, goals, and intentions are different from Sauron's, regardless of the relationship to the One Ring.

But what would Sauron think with the hand of Eru violently drowning Numenor, destroying the greatest armada ever assembled under Ar-Pharazon, and reshaping the very earth itself after interceding for the Valar? What would Sauron think when his own ruin was almost encompassed in that vengeful tidal wave initiated by Illuvatar Himself? Sauron could not possibly hold any hope for Morgoth's release when the hand of God was against him. And Sauron indeed knew it was Eru who had caused the great tumult:

"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon the sea and land."

Like Morgoth, Sauron's reach had exceeded his grasp, and Sauron decided that Valinor was out of reach of Middle-earth forever. He would concentrate his power on the sole dominion of the world that is as Tyrannus Imperator and God of this World, eschewing any thought of Morgoth's return.

As for the Balrog, it was an age and more that it was under any direction from his Dark Lord, Morgorth. The Balrog was a Maia, like Sauron, and seeing Gandalf's fearful denial of the Ring and Saruman's descent from greatness to degeneracy at the mere consideration of holding the Ring, would not the Balrog, too, succumb to the Ring's lure? The Balrog was not like the Wraiths, beholden to Sauron for their existence and enslaved by Rings of their own. He was not some automaton moving at the behest of Sauron. He would not blithely surrender up such a thing as powerful and tempting as the One Ring because Tolkien was quite specific about the effects on even the greatest of beings.

[Zigûr]

The most relevant passage about Sauron's attitude to Morgoth after the First Age is to be found in Morgoth's Ring:

Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism,
because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased
to fear God's action in Arda). As was seen in the case of
Ar-Pharazon. But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon
Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms: as a god, or
even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which
was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at
least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than
himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both
profited by this darkened shadow of good and the services of
'worshippers'. But it may be doubted whether even such a
shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that
time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To
wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to
propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope
of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he
desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for
world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound him-
self; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the
worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.

This has always suggested to me that Sauron advocated Melkor-worship in Númenor out of opportunism and pragmatism, not genuine belief. As a hostage and prisoner in Númenor it would have been very unlikely that he could have put forward himself as their new religious figure and be successful, but he can put forward someone else, one about whom the Eldar had perhaps rarely spoken, and perhaps therefore appeared to be "forbidden" (and thus appealing) in the lore of Númenor which, by then, had been estranged from the Eldar and Valar for some time.

As for other places, it seems as if Sauron tended to be worshipped as a god himself. Professor Tolkien observes in Letter 131 that Sauron's empire, even in the Second Age (before he went to Númenor in fact), was an "evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves)". He also appears, according to The Lord of the Rings, to have been worshipped by the Black Númenóreans in some parts and/or at some, possibly later, times: "they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge."

We also know, however, that "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." (Letter 183) This suggests to me the possibility that Sauron exploited Men's uncertainty about who or what their dark god actually was in order to conflate himself with that person; it seems possible to me that some Men at least did not know that there was any difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Sauron, however, "demanded divine honour from all rational creatures", which suggests to me that he ultimately wished for himself, not Morgoth, to be worshipped as a god, and that he only used Morgoth's legacy when it enabled his own power to do so. According to Morgoth's Ring, he may actually have seen Morgoth as a failure after the First Age, not an object of worthy veneration:
"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

I should point out, however, that this is something of a later character development. In the original Númenor story composed in the early 1930s, at the time of The Lost Road and before any other aspects of the history of the Second Age were invented (and before the Third Age was invented at all), Sauron did not have this personal agenda; he's actually more like a puppet of Morgoth's will, or at least receiving instructions from Morgoth from afar. In this period Sauron appears to have been conceived of more as Morgoth's representative; in the later developments of the narrative Morgoth no longer seems to have much capacity, if any, to instruct or communicate with his former servants from the Void, and Sauron takes on the role of a replacement with his own, separate ambitions.

As for the Balrog, I don't recall any material in The Treason of Isengard or elsewhere which speculates too heavily on the nature of the Balrog, although I think there is speculation, abandoned in later re-drafting, that it might have served Sauron. I'll have to check later. Just wanted to get the "How sincerely did Sauron worship Morgoth?" discussion out while it was fresh in my mind.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The most relevant passage about Sauron's attitude to Morgoth after the First Age is to be found in Morgoth's Ring:

This has always suggested to me that Sauron advocated Melkor-worship in Númenor out of opportunism and pragmatism, not genuine belief. As a hostage and prisoner in Númenor it would have been very unlikely that he could have put forward himself as their new religious figure and be successful, but he can put forward someone else, one about whom the Eldar had perhaps rarely spoken, and perhaps therefore appeared to be "forbidden" (and thus appealing) in the lore of Númenor which, by then, had been estranged from the Eldar and Valar for some time.

I do not think that being a Cynical Opportunist and a True Believer are necessarily exclusive qualities.

It was the very passage you quoted that led me to think that Sauron would not surrender his loyalties to Morgoth so easily.

But that is really tangential to my main point regarding the One Ring and the Balrog. I will return to that later.

My point with Sauron is that his motivations were different than the Balrogs, as well as he was still the Balrog's "Boss" as it were.

I do admit that Sauron's depictions, and motivations, goals, desires seem to have shifted, and developed as Tolkien conceived Middle-earth.

But the ONE THING that informs all of my suspicions about Middle-earth involves a Unifying Metaphysics and thus Physics (How things "work"). As this was said by CJRT to be what caused JRR Tolkien to fail at completing The Silmarillion, and the earlier myths.

From The History of Middle-earth, Vol. X: Morgoth's Ring, pp. x - xi:

Meditating long on the world that he had brought into being and was now in part unveiled, he had become absorbed in analytic speculation concerning its underlying postulates. before he could prepare a final and new Silmarillion he must satisfy the requirements of a coherent theological and metaphysical system, rendered now more complex in its presentation by the supposition of obscure and conflicting elements in its roots and its tradition.

And the issue of the One Ring is something that would need to be more adequately defined under such a system before we could know whether it would indeed have the same effects upon the Balrog that it had for others.

Note that not all Maia sought to possess the Ring, as they understood the dangers involved. And this might well apply to a creature who was Evil, recognizing that the One Ring might not help said creature as much in its own possession

As for other places, it seems as if Sauron tended to be worshipped as a god himself. Professor Tolkien observes in Letter 131 that Sauron's empire, even in the Second Age (before he went to Númenor in fact), was an "evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves)". He also appears, according to The Lord of the Rings, to have been worshipped by the Black Númenóreans in some parts and/or at some, possibly later, times: "they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge."

We also know, however, that "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." (Letter 183) This suggests to me the possibility that Sauron exploited Men's uncertainty about who or what their dark god actually was in order to conflate himself with that person; it seems possible to me that some Men at least did not know that there was any difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Sauron, however, "demanded divine honour from all rational creatures", which suggests to me that he ultimately wished for himself, not Morgoth, to be worshipped as a god, and that he only used Morgoth's legacy when it enabled his own power to do so. According to Morgoth's Ring, he may actually have seen Morgoth as a failure after the First Age, not an object of worthy veneration:
"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more."

I should point out, however, that this is something of a later character development. In the original Númenor story composed in the early 1930s, at the time of The Lost Road and before any other aspects of the history of the Second Age were invented (and before the Third Age was invented at all), Sauron did not have this personal agenda; he's actually more like a puppet of Morgoth's will, or at least receiving instructions from Morgoth from afar. In this period Sauron appears to have been conceived of more as Morgoth's representative; in the later developments of the narrative Morgoth no longer seems to have much capacity, if any, to instruct or communicate with his former servants from the Void, and Sauron takes on the role of a replacement with his own, separate ambitions.

As for the Balrog, I don't recall any material in The Treason of Isengard or elsewhere which speculates too heavily on the nature of the Balrog, although I think there is speculation, abandoned in later re-drafting, that it might have served Sauron. I'll have to check later. Just wanted to get the "How sincerely did Sauron worship Morgoth?" discussion out while it was fresh in my mind.

(Grrrrr..... Had an entire paragraph eaten by my cat...)

The issue of how Faithful Sauron is is secondary to how faithful the Balrogs remained, or at least that was my intention.

From Morgoth's Ring, p. 165:

For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendor in the days of his greatness, and remained in allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukir, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called Balrogs, demons of terror.

The Actual text of LQ 2 my father amended at this time very hastily to read:

These were the (ëaler) spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendor, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named by the Noldor in later days. . . .

This is from work Tolkien created regarding the Earlier Days of Middle-earth after his completion of The Lord of the Rings but prior to its publication.

And it seems to indicate that the Balrogs would have remained very faithful to Morgoth. My personal take on this is that this means they would have remained faithful to the AUTHORITY of Morgoth as well, and Morgoth appointed Sauron as his chief Lieutenant.

We do have Archetypes and Myths for demons who betray such authority and loyalty to Evil; as many as those who retain loyalty and authority to Evil.

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

And... I do not think that the One Ring would have the same kind of effect upon the Balrogs as they had upon Mortals, or upon those who Lust for Power.

The Balrogs are not an Archetype of Lust, nor of Power. They are an Archetype of Violence, Fear, and Terror. They are an Archetype of a Display of Power, much like a terrible or horrific weapon, which has little Will of its own, but rather takes its will from the designated Authority.

Notice that in all the Thousands of Years the Balrog sat beneath the Three Peaks of Moria that it not once acted to establish any sort of dominion. It merely reacted when it was threatened, or encroached upon.

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

As I have rambled enough here.... My point, overall is that the Balrog cannot be expected to behave like Mortals, or like other Maiar who retain their intact Will (Capital-W). And thus outside of an operationalized definition of the Properties of the One Ring it is very difficult to know how it would react.

I have simply spelled out my own suspicions, and what evidence I believe supports them; right-or-wrong.

MB

[Zigûr]

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But given the Balrogs representation as following the Will of Morgoth almost robotically, I would think that they would seek to Surrender the One Ring back to Sauron, and then act as if Sauron was the Earthly Proxy of Morgoth, as indeed you suggest he is.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

"One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control."

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

So... Maybe it would have taken the One Ring had it fallen into the Balrog's lap, and then just sat in Moria until Sauron came along to ask for his Ring back?

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Yes apologies for the long digression about Sauron; it's just a personal interest of mine. My first ever topic here was on the subject of what his attitude towards Morgoth was after the First Age and how much of his agenda was his own.

It might be worth considering this statement from Morgoth's Ring about Melkor/Morgoth's weakening:

This implies that the Balrogs still had some measure of independence (even if by accident), but perhaps a rather weak one. Maybe it was "waiting" for further orders from Morgoth (which of course never came). Might their "robotic" characteristics, then, perhaps be attributed to the Will of Morgoth being upon them? I'm reminded, for instance, of how when the Ring was destroyed the forces of Sauron were "witless and purposeless". Perhaps without the Will of Morgoth upon it, a Balrog might be somewhat mindless and similarly "purposeless", hence its apparent willingness to stay in Moria for hundreds of years and only emerge if roused by some disturbance or other, and then apparently only by performing what had then become its primary purpose: seeking to destroy.

The Quote of Tolkien regarding the "Weakening" of Morgoth is something that I was taking into consideration.

Also, I do not mean to imply that "Robotic" means "Without Will."

I used the term without giving thought to the audience. I am used to using the term with an audience for whom the word (Robotic) has a very different meaning than typically used. I defined it in my previous post, as being Rigorously Faithful to a set of Operational Principles (be that an Optimization Function of some sort, or some other directive).

And the episode at the end of The Lord of the Rings needs to be informed by the fact that this failure of their "Will" was not complete, or permanent. Nor was Sauron completely destroyed (as only Eru can do that). Sauron was simply "dispersed" by the Valar to prevent him from remaining as a coherent Will and Force of Evil.

Elessar still had to spend years eliminating pockets of Organized Resistance from the remnants of Orcs and other creatures serving Sauron.

The sudden chaos among Sauron's servants seems to be more likely due to Shock of the loss of Will, which, like any Shock, would recover somewhat after a time.

And... Recall that Morgoth's Will is not completely absent from Middle-earth. His Will is a part of the very Fabric of Middle-earth, as the result of Arda Marred.

But that Will is very much diminished, which could account for the Balrog's lack of any drive to act.

It seems like a possibility. I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

Unfortunately, I suspect we'll simply never know.

My suspicion is that the Balrog would remain Faithful to Morgoth, and thus to Sauron, who was Morgoth's recognized subordinate and proxy.

At least the Balrog would do so as long as it perceived Sauron to be remaining Faithful to Morgoth, which is a point of contention.

Was Sauron acting solely cynically and opportunistically in spreading Morgothism?

Or did he still genuinely revere Morgoth as the Rightful Lord and God of Arda?

Or was he doing both?

Perhaps Sauron was just having a "Crisis of Faith" due to the setbacks of his Master, and that had Smaug, and the Balrog managed to be rallied to his side, he would have again acted in the name of Morgoth, rather than in his own right.

Also, a point I missed earlier....

It is not a contradiction that Sauron should seek veneration as a God himself while still recognizing a superior deity (Morgoth). This is a central feature of Pagan religions (That the Gods have a Hierarchy), and we even see this to an extent among Catholicism with the veneration of Saints. Also, the various Satan/Lucifer Myths that detail a litany of subordinate Demons show that many of the Demons were worshipped in their own right while still respecting the suzerainty of Satan/Lucifer.

But overall I think that the issue of the One Ring is overblown when dealing with the Greater Demons in service to Morgoth, or other creatures in his service; as if the One Ring was the source of Ultimate Evil and Power.

Especially in light of how those (horrific) movies portrayed the One Ring.

While the One Ring is especially important to the Mythology of the Later Ages of Middle-earth, and is incredibly powerful in Light of the remaining "Powers" within Middle-earth, it should pale in comparison to Morgoth, even diminished.

It is sort of like the difference between a gun, and the tide of the ocean.

Sauron's Ring is like a Gun, capable of putting extreme power into the hands of a single person.

While Morgoth's power is like that of the tides of the ocean: Vast, and immense beyond compare to the power of the Gun; capable of re-shaping the world itself, and moving continents, given the time.

With the gun you can point it at people, and use it to Dominate to your will those so threatened. Yet one who controlled the tides could lay waste to entire regions of the Earth.

MB

[Kuruharan]

I don't agree with the idea that Balrogs were mere subservient elemental manifestations with no will of their own, unable to deviate from the programming devised by Morgoth, or were incapable of independent action. How would the Balrog of Moria have fled in the first place if it had no independent will? I think the impression of "roboticness" on the part of the Balrogs is mostly a result of the comparative abstractness of the Sil, where only a select few personalities are explored in detail, and the fact that the Balrog of Moria never spoke in its confrontation with Gandalf.

All of Morgoth's servants we come into detailed contact with have at least some degree of free will. Why would Balrogs differ in this regard?

Clearly, to a large extent the motivations of the Balrog of Moria were different from the norm of Evil, but it was operating on incomplete information.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I wonder the extent to which a Balrog might have recognised Sauron's authority. One would assume that in the First Age, during the times in which Sauron had command (such as when he was in Angband while Melkor was in Valinor, or when Morgoth went forth to spy on Men) he must have had authority over the Balrogs, even Gothmog, who was perhaps only one step below him in the chain of command. If Morgoth was defeated, killed and expelled into the Void, however, and Sauron was now pursuing his own ambition of conquering Middle-earth, might a Balrog recognise this and no longer perceive Sauron as its superior?

I agree with Zigûr.

How legitimate would the Balrog have viewed Sauron as being the proxy for Morgoth? Especially since the Balrog would know that Sauron was lying about being Morgoth Returned and could not possibly be taken in by this deceit. Also note, Sauron abandoned his service to Morgoth before the end of the First Age, presumably vacating his place as Morgoth's chief lieutenant. The Balrog would undoubtedly be aware of this betrayal. Why would the Balrog respect Sauron as Morgoth's proxy in light of these things?

The other question that has not been touched on in this thread yet is "Could the Balrog have mastered the Ring?"

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But what would Sauron think with the hand of Eru violently drowning Numenor, destroying the greatest armada ever assembled under Ar-Pharazon, and reshaping the very earth itself after interceding for the Valar? What would Sauron think when his own ruin was almost encompassed in that vengeful tidal wave initiated by Illuvatar Himself? Sauron could not possibly hold any hope for Morgoth's release when the hand of God was against him. And Sauron indeed knew it was Eru who had caused the great tumult:

"For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon the sea and land."

Like Morgoth, Sauron's reach had exceeded his grasp, and Sauron decided that Valinor was out of reach of Middle-earth forever. He would concentrate his power on the sole dominion of the world that is as Tyrannus Imperator and God of this World, eschewing any thought of Morgoth's return.

As for the Balrog, it was an age and more that it was under any direction from his Dark Lord, Morgorth. The Balrog was a Maia, like Sauron, and seeing Gandalf's fearful denial of the Ring and Saruman's descent from greatness to degeneracy at the mere consideration of holding the Ring, would not the Balrog, too, succumb to the Ring's lure? The Balrog was not like the Wraiths, beholden to Sauron for their existence and enslaved by Rings of their own. He was not some automaton moving at the behest of Sauron. He would not blithely surrender up such a thing as powerful and tempting as the One Ring because Tolkien was quite specific about the effects on even the greatest of beings.

As I pointed out in my prior post, the issue has less to do with Sauron's Faithfulness to Morgoth, and more to do with the Balrog's.

I quote from Morgoth's Ring (in my previous post) a note that Tolkien made regarding Balrogs, and how they remained the most Faithful of Morgoth's servants.

The latter part of that post contains a response to your last question.

And... I suspect you will find that Tolkien was less specific on the effects of the One Ring than you imagine.

His descriptions dealt merely with those who sought to use the One Ring, or withhold it from its Rightful Owner. Absent in those descriptions are what effects it has upon co-evals of Sauron and Servants of Morgoth of similar power and "kind."

Can we really assume that the effects of the One Ring are similar in effort upon/between those who are "Good" (Capital-G) and those who are already "Evil" (Capital-E)?

Would not that assumption require the thing that Tolkien himself failed to reach: a Functional Metaphysics for Middle-earth that would have allowed him to define the mechanism by which the One Ring operated?

MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

As I pointed out in my prior post, the issue has less to do with Sauron's Faithfulness to Morgoth, and more to do with the Balrog's.

I quote from Morgoth's Ring (in my previous post) a note that Tolkien made regarding Balrogs, and how they remained the most Faithful of Morgoth's servants.

The latter part of that post contains a response to your last question.

And... I suspect you will find that Tolkien was less specific on the effects of the One Ring than you imagine.

His descriptions dealt merely with those who sought to use the One Ring, or withhold it from its Rightful Owner. Absent in those descriptions are what effects it has upon co-evals of Sauron and Servants of Morgoth of similar power and "kind."

Can we really assume that the effects of the One Ring are similar in effort upon/between those who are "Good" (Capital-G) and those who are already "Evil" (Capital-E)?

Would not that assumption require the thing that Tolkien himself failed to reach: a Functional Metaphysics for Middle-earth that would have allowed him to define the mechanism by which the One Ring operated?

MB

You make the claim in a previous post that the Balrogs followed Morgoth "robotically". Funny thing, a Balrog wisely fleeing the imprisonment of his master, like another Maia, Sauron. One would think a robot would have laid down its life for its master, rather than running and hiding. That would indicate to me a being with a will of its own, and completely uninterested in sharing his master's fate.

It's also interesting that you make the assumption that the One Ring would be radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be wielded by another, as if the E and the G would make much of a difference if the Ring was presented to one or the other. It's true the only Evil characters seeking the Ring were the Nazgul and they were already in thrall to the One Ring, and so do not count in the equation. I would say that, given the information we do have, that the Ring is inherently addictive, so much so that Saruman the Maia became obsessed by it without even seeing or touching it. And I think its fairly clear in the story that if he found the Ring he would not be handing it to Sauron.

Here's an interesting question: do you think if Morgoth returned to Middle-earth and Sauron was in possession of the Ring, would he, at the end of the 3rd Age, surrender it to Morgoth?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You make the claim in a previous post that the Balrogs followed Morgoth "robotically". Funny thing, a Balrog wisely fleeing the imprisonment of his master, like another Maia, Sauron. One would think a robot would have laid down its life for its master, rather than running and hiding. That would indicate to me a being with a will of its own, and completely uninterested in sharing his master's fate.

Pardon the confusion about Robotically. That word tends to carry a different connotation for me (and those with whom I most regularly use the term) than is typically used, and I used it without thinking of the context.

The word was not meant to imply the Balrogs have no Will, only that they are rigorously faithful to a set of operational principles.

It's also interesting that you make the assumption that the One Ring would be radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be wielded by another, as if the E and the G would make much of a difference if the Ring was presented to one or the other. It's true the only Evil characters seeking the Ring were the Nazgul and they were already in thrall to the One Ring, and so do not count in the equation. I would say that, given the information we do have, that the Ring is inherently addictive, so much so that Saruman the Maia became obsessed by it without even seeing or touching it. And I think its fairly clear in the story that if he found the Ring he would not be handing it to Sauron.

No, not radically different in the hands of one set of Maia as it would be "wielded" by another.

My point is that the Balrog would have No interest in wielding it at all. Much like Faramir, or Gandalf.

Because the Operational Principles under which the Balrogs act is to maximize the Power of their Master(s) (being Morgoth and Sauron).

And the One Ring in their possession would not maximize that power, it would diminish it.

This is an area where there is some contention regarding the nature of the One Ring. And I think that the movie tends to act to a great deal in propagating that contention by treating the One Ring as if it were some overwhelming addictive force against which all were immediately (instead of ultimately) powerless.

Even Frodo only used the One Ring three times, and all the while he remained Faithful to the cause of destroying it, right up to the Ultimate Act itself, where he failed.

The Balrog is going to have different motivations from people like Saruman, or Sauron, whom Tolkien depicted as Fully Realized Agents, rather than the subservient Elemental manifestation of Horror, Terror, Fire, and Darkness that are the Balrogs.

In that respect, the One Ring seems to mostly Corrupt Good, while Furthering the goals of Evil. The Balrog isn't "Good." It begins as "Evil" (already Corrupted, AGES LONG SINCE Corrupted).

The One Ring manifests through corrupting the motivations of People who seek to claim it, or use it.

Thus the Balrog has two things going for it that make the One Ring's relationship to the Balrog different:

1) The Motivations of the Balrog are not to Dominate and Control (which is what Sauron poured of his Will into the One Ring).
2) The Balrog is already Corrupted. It is already going to seek out what will maximize Evil.

Here's an interesting question: do you think if Morgoth returned to Middle-earth and Sauron was in possession of the Ring, would he, at the end of the 3rd Age, surrender it to Morgoth?

Nope, because:

1) Morgoth doesn't seek to Dominate other Peoples. He seeks to Dominate the Fabric of Reality, and to Create in his own Right. It is a pity that Morgoth's Ring isn't digital, because this is one Aspect of Morgoth that Tolkien himself spelled out (and having a digital copy would allow me to do a quick search for the Quote - I am in the process of re-reading it right now, and will eventually discover that quote. I will be sure to post it in this thread when I find it).

This does not mean that Morgoth is wholly uninterested in Enslaving the Children of Ilúvatar. Only that this interest is itself not his Primary Interest. It is merely subservient to his Primary Goal of Dominating Arda itself. Morgoth seems to have left the Nuts-and-Bolts of Temporal Power to Sauron. Again, somewhere in Morgoth's Ring there is a quote by Tolkien to this effect, and I will locate it within the next few days (making a note to myself to make a note of it here when i locate it).

2) Morgoth doesn't need a Firecracker when he has the equivalent of Nuclear Weapons. Again, from Morgoth's Ring (only this time I have the Quote); p. xi.:

. . . for this reason have I chosen Morgoth's Ring as the title of this book. It derives from a passage in my father's essay 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion' (pp. 394 ff.), in which he contrasted the nature of Sauron's power, concentrated in the One Ring, with that of Morgoth, enormously greater, but dispersed or disseminated into the very matter of Arda: 'the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring'.

[Emphasis Mine]

The One Ring has an overblown reputation in this sense, in that people seem to thing that it is the Ultimate Power for Evil in Middle-earth. Morgoth is that Ultimate Power. Morgoth IS SATAN.

Yet to Morgoth, the One Ring would be a trinket; a bauble made by one of his Servants, which itself is made of the Substance of Morgoth's Ring. Satan does not need to usurp the devices of his Servants. Doing so would diminish them, and thus Satan himself.

So, again, the One Ring would be best used to/for Morgoth's Ends in the hands of Sauron... Not in the hands of Morgoth himself. Morgoth would not seek to diminish the power of his Agents and Servants to act on his behalf. And that is what (pointlessly) taking the One Ring from Sauron would do.

And... Yes, I am aware that Tolkien said that Sauron had grown in power since the end of the First Age. But the Writings in Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels post-date the Writing of The Lord of the Rings. And they remain consistent in Pointing out that Morgoth remains the (Ultimate) Source of ALL Evil within Arda (and Ëa).

In Metaphysical terms, the mass of his Fëa (and thus Evil) is tremendous compared to that of Sauron, even with some sort of amplifying property of the One Ring for Sauron's Fëa (and thus Evil).

MB