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#1 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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Given that this thread does not yet top 100, this hyperbole seems a little over the top. Sadly that's true, but I still can't see why others should suffer because of your lack of argumentation - with dates or otherwise.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#2 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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Have a look at some of the comments said about me -- apparently --being a troll. (would you really like me to find the URL's? was it morgaron? I honestly DON"T CARE. As you can see, I am not. I am merely trying ***very*** hard to simply post light heartedly, and do have a literary foundation and deep love of the mythology. I have seen Morgathon's various attempts to - I don't know - seriously, I don't know what on earth she/he is doing, and why there is the repetitive insistence from that poster about --apparently--my ignorance, dumbness, or abjectly stupid minded incapacity to be a ....troll. Troll, no. I love the mythology. I have a lot to say about it. I've read a great deal. Must I prove that I know at least some things? And how long further must all this go on, until I'm just allowed to simply enjoy posting a random fun comment, without it being ultra dissected and turned into an excuse by I don't know, whatever. Who cares Let's just have fun Kind regards to you |
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#3 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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Let's keep discussion based on these wonderful texts and our interpretations, and not allow the thread to be consumed by petty jabs at people that disagree.
(Or chat speak and memes.) ![]()
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#4 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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My replies, following the post where William C. Hicklin refutes your assumptions, were in accordance with his refutations. The incredibly circumlocutious posts that you offered later, while they belabored the thread in both a longitudinal and latitudinal manner, are not cogent to the refutations, nor do they in any way bolster your original assumptions. Any reference to the One Ring or the effects of the One Ring were added in afterthought and are not part of The Hobbit as originally published, and The Hobbit had to be revised to make the appropriate plot points, and a backstory (i.e., that Bilbo lied about the "present" and the riddle game) was provided -- after the fact, as all documentation indicates. The thought of Bilbo's magic ring did not have any significance to Tolkien beyond it being a folkloric motif, a handy device, for the furtherance of the original story. In fact, Tolkien says as much: Quote:
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#5 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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I will add, there is now a day and a half of research in ongoing discoveries, and those materials speak for themselves. Kind Regards- Is it rude of me to kindly ask you to please bear upon my presence here with some welcoming? Perhaps something to greet, or to thank, even if the arguments you cite and your opinion vary? I would appreciate that at this point. |
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#6 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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Some Information about The Seven Fathers
7. The Seven Fathers ( timing of 'numbering' non-accidental
![]() I've reserved a special place for that battle because it implicates and crosses over with/unifies: a. The Mythology and The Silmarillion as it intersects with Ring Lore (not ring lore), in Eregion (West Gate) and Azanulbizar (East Gate) and the migratory patterns and grudge matches of -- both the Orc-and-Dwarves over the pre-Hobbit history. I suspect I'll unearth something dates in the various manuscripts that may assist to pin down the item of discussion about when the ring and the Ring first were a "Ring of Fire" in the Prof's imagination and head. Perhaps Sauron visited the Professor in a dream from The Void. Just reading atm. I'll be back to edit this post [Edit]Basic gist--Dwarves are in the Silmarillion. Originally, two lines, not seven. And, I'm not going to lengthen this post, as I haven't been able to find much about the fabled Battle. I've found resolution to satisfactory levels in Numenor, (see downstream), to make the same argument. If I find a Dwarvish treasure trove, I'll be back to this post[/Edit] Last edited by Ivriniel; 12-05-2015 at 07:12 AM. |
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#7 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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8. Silmarillion Materials, Numenor, SA Concepts and Analysis
While I am researching entry 7 above, I've got the conjoined research about The Silmarillion at hand. The Lays of Beleriand provide some really good bases upon which to explore 'which part' of the Silmillian the prof had ready as early as 1917 (Lay of Leithian). The Lay of the Children of Hurin in alliterative verse and the Lay of Leithian in octosyllabie couples. The alliterative poem was composed while the prof had an appointment at the University of Leeds (1920 - 1925) and he abandoned that for the Lay of Leithian at the end of that tenure "...and never turned to it again" (p. 1 of Preface). The 2000 line poem "...is only a fragment in relation to what he once planned....". It described many of the features we are all famililar with, such as Nargothrond, for example, Beren, Luthien, etc. He worked on the Lay of Leithian for six years. abandoning it in turn in September of 1931. However, it was submitted in 1937, 15th of November with the following tomes: 1. Farmer Giles of Ham. 2. Long Poem. 3. Mr Bliss. 4. The Gnomes Material. 5. The Lost Road. Further, he also sent along with the Silmarillion submission, the Ainulindale, Ambarkanta (The Shaping of the World) and The Fall of the Numenoreans (see p. 364-365, The Lays of Beleriand, George Allen and Unwin, 1985 [it's a beautiful old tome in my library, a hardback edition]). In The Lost Road (p. 8, Unwin Hyman Limited 1987), and on the subject of Numenor, the entry reads: Quote:
A read of the transcript cites all the golden oldies. Lindon, the Last Alliance, Sauron's rise in Middle Earth and Numenor's pride, yadda yadda. Sauron, Mordor, Elendil, Gil Galad. Except, Sauron is referred to as Thu as well as Sauron (as he is in the original Silarillion), and "This belongs to the pre-Lord of the Rings period" (p. 34). So, when we juxtapose these materials (Last Alliance, Numenor, pre-1937-Hobbit) with earlier researched materials identifying the Hobbit as having a pre-1937 existence, as early as I think, 1931 (see communication between CS Lewis and co commenting on the draft), there is -- six years -- for the prof to be pondering the intimate linking of the prequel to the sequel. So, in that 6 (six) years, I find it increasingly unlikely that the author did not -- once -- move the ring to the Ring, ahead of actual publication as, certainly, a tenable plot line. I acknowledge that the prof himself stated that originally it was a ring. But, the timelines between authorship, submission, editing and publication of the 1937 first tome are very, WIDE. I do not find any explicit prose on this subject (about what the professor was actually thinking in the timeline between typing up and first publication) --ANYWHERE. We seem to have forgotten, that in ye olden days, first a man wrote it down on paper with pen. Then a man typed it up on a typewriter. It's not like the modern day were we have the liberty of saying 'writing/submission/publication' with narrower timelines. So, whilst Of the Rings of Power and the Second Age in the Silmarillion, I haven't even touched yet, thus far, even to here, there's more than enough latitude in varied context to put a lid on the monolithic assumption that 'first publication' means the same thing as 'first conceived' as a Ring. And, I never, prior to this series of entries, ever said as much as I have here, about latitudes of timelines. If you look upstream, I conceded a great deal more. The most I ever stated about the ring becoming the Ring, prior to my research venture was that it seemed to me that by December of 1937, it had become a Ring. Certainly, not discordant really, as was attributed (Morthoron and Galadriel, in particular) where -- apparently -- I wasn't aware that it was a rrrrr-ing originally and that it was a Ring originally and after December of 1937. Please find where I have said so. And certainly, in Chapter II The Shadow of the Past (when it was written), certainly, we have the LotR plot about RRRRings, although the conceived title (as I stated much, much earlier) was LotRRRRRRRRR (December 1937 cut in stone). And Ringwraiths appear in WRITING (I don't know when in HIS HEAD they appeared) but there is a letter I cite (I think) that puts Nazul-ian birth as sometime after 1937. [Edit]'rrrr' to replace typographical 'R' - apologies for the error[/edit] [Edit]'RRRR''s added and last sentence varied.[/edit] Last edited by Ivriniel; 12-05-2015 at 03:05 PM. |
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#8 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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And this for Morgothrond before I post the 'next bit' about Longintidinal de-The Hobbit-isation-of-the*r*-ing (ie Bilbo bearing the 'R'ing, not 'r'ing) hypothesi.....erbole.
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Really Number one: Really - I haven't already said this, about as many times as Queen Beruthial had cats? and Really Number two: Really, you really want to really say that, rather than an Unreally? (i.e. to borrow a Tolkien-ean fun way of 'backup up/out' of a dead end argument. As I often say, Feanor was UNfriends with Galadriel--forever (which pre-Facebook used to sound really hilarious to me n my kin, and friends who read the mythology. We used to laugh until crying about some of the linguistic nuances of the works, and Ungoliant's UNlight was 'verily or nigh' (choose one or the other) example. Quote:
And, yes, I'm the 'intelligent idiot' aren't I for labouring - just for you - to actually get out a cogent (sorry, it's cogent, Morgathrond) position statement. I'll summarise the heuristic. " Quote:
the ring was a ring in the ring that Bilbo found, in Hobbit Version minus 1000, written 3500BC (ie the 1937 Hobbit) and became a Ring (temporal causalisty loops give me a headache (*Captain Janeway, Voyager--omg, my brain hurts) by DECEMBER of 1937. This, in my 'stupid' argumentative series means that -- contrasting the two assumptions -- there is a six year window of ***DOUBT*** about which (oh my god, my head hurts) hypothesiss-es hobbitses applies. That is, the Hobbit was READ by CS LEWIS sometime in or around or prior to 1931. We do not know 'which' 'Hobbit' Tolkien was referring to when he states that his ring was the ring not the Ring in LETTERS, for example (and I have QUOTED which LETTER he did say what he did). Kind Regards to you, Morthoron. Thank you for the fun. Last edited by Ivriniel; 12-05-2015 at 02:45 PM. |
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#9 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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I've edited your post for clarity by omitting most of your blurb. I'll leave in the juvenile misspelling of my name that you have continued unabated throughout your posts, much like your incessant maundering. You do yourself a disservice by rambling, mitigating what might be clearer debate. Concision, thy name is not Ivriniel.
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In any case, and beyond your blatant error, there is no indication here, and you have not provided anywhere, that the magic ring was anything other than a magic ring, a folkloric motif for which Tolkien was fond. Like talking troll purses. Or magic diamond cufflinks that fastened themselves. Or trolls that turn to stone at sunrise. Or caves with magic keyholes. Or glow-in-the dark-when-orcses-are-around Elven swords. Or moon runes. Or animal table servers. Or spectral white stags. Or disappearing fey banquets. Or talking Odinic ravens. Or a black arrow that always returns to the rightful bowman. In addition, not only did Tolkien have to rewrite the character of Gollum to fit the later, revised story of his birthday present (which, as we know from reading the actual, original version of The Hobbit, Gollum was gladly willing to give to Bilbo because, of course, it was not the One Ring), Sauron had to be added as well: Quote:
And this is where I leave this addled conversation. I have no intention of wading through the mire any further. I believe I have proved my point without further elucidation -- or an adversary's erring, unproven assumptions that remain unproven after many posts.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#10 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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Apologies for 31-ing instead of 33-ing. However--the 'blatant error' is merely vocabulary to distract, Mothoron. It's imprecise and evidences misunderstanding of the basic premise outlined. I've noticed a tendency for your arguments to use -- extreme -- or -- exaggerated -- interpolations. For example... Quote:
Um, as for the rest of your post - it does strike the eyes and evoke more chuckling. Um, I'm not trying to assert Quote:
Yours Ungoliantine-esely Iv-gonial, Ungol-niel, wait, UnVriniel, erm, Silmari-riniel, um, I've lost my identity! Look what you've done to me. |
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#11 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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UT The Quest for Erebor
6. The Quest for Erebor
I've highlighted this entry, separately because it reveals somewhat of Tolkien's thinking and imaginary motivation that he bore upon writing LotR, after the Hobbit was released to the shelves. Chris states in UT that there are three variants of The Quest for Erebor, although no dates to any of the manuscripts are given. The letters "A", "B" and "C" he designates and in seeming chronological order. He states that the earliest version is complete and is entitled The History of Gandalf's Dealings with Thrain and Thorin Oakenshield, although it is "rough" (p. 327, George Allan and Unwin, 1980 Edition), but is a "much emended" manuscript for "complex and hard to unravel" (p. 327). From this manuscript B was made which had a "great deal of further alteration, though mostly of a very minor kind" (p. 327). B is entitled The Quest of Erebor, and also Gandalf's Account of how he came to arrange the Expedition to Erebor and send Bilbo with the Dwarves. Manuscript C, untitled tells Quote:
![]() First of all, Gandalf did disappear for term when the Dwarves and Bilbo were moving through Mirkwood. Second, materials again support the Transmutation Hypothesis (see upstream) in relation to the prof's most vivid and evolving imagination, meaning and ideas about characters. Importantly, we should trace the history of the author's narratives about -- The Dwarves -- as well. Exactly 'what' he says about them in the Silmarillion, is quite relevant. We know the 'Aule' story. How much of the history of the Seven Fathers was rattling around inside his mind at the time he wrote The Hobbit is unclear. I have a feeling though, that if I review Dwarvish manuscripts, etc, and the tomes and their dates (sometimes the prof did supply dates), that I will unearth more about when he first decided The Ring-S were part of the Silmarillion mythology. It seems to me also though that anything "Appendix A-ish" might be bridging materials assembled post hoc (in relation to the Hobbit). The 'might be' is important as, of course, quite a lot of the Appendices point to the background mythology and the Silmarillion. As always it is extremely difficult tracking anything down to a clear, crisp conclusion, but I suppose the research itself is the fun. |
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#12 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
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Where is it that I seem to be disagreeing with in relation to the main point (made on the thread by -- not just me, but several --), about 50 posts prior, about rings, not Rings and when this [transition of ring to Ring] occurred? Am I making myself clear? I wonder if I am or not. After I hear from you (I'll wait a day or so) and if I haven't, I'll go on to take off where I left off: The Longitudinal 'Hobbit Character Shift' theory (and I realise it's just a fun idea, and I'm not really married to it. It's just having fun. I actually have very much enjoyed researching because it's delightful reading Tolkien's words about the Ages in the various Tomes I have in my library. Kind Regards And I apologise to the readers. Really, it was Ungoliant who ate the Silmarils, not Morogoth. And that Erebor was chained to Thangorodrim (when Fingolfin cut off his hand above the wrist), Erebor was rescued, resolving the blood feud between the Dwarves and the Elves. That's why Finarfin DID move house to -- MORDOR -- and it's all a trick. Sauron's real name is Frodo Baggins. Laugh at me please. Because I do. I couldn't possibly enjoy any posting of this kind of technical nature without underscoring, that it was Fatty Bolger who was the Wight at Carn Dum. Technical posts are really HARD to read and enjoy. So enjoy Unreading them. Silmarien married Ar Pharazon, but what happened was, they had a fight, and so, Ar Pharazon got miffed and thought he was leaving Silmarien, but he accidentally headed West, hence Silmarien made it to Elendil, just in time. Back to the Future she went. And really - that's kinda how Tolkien wrote. If you think about ![]() Last edited by Ivriniel; 12-05-2015 at 08:09 AM. |
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