Bilbo´s treachery

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Was it, though? I don't recall posts with a longitudinal type of analysis comparing Bilbo "now" against Bilbo "then" within the same edition.

But since you bring it up, no, I don't think Bilbo's innate flaws increase; I just think that the range of application widened. In the Shire, his best and worst deeds were limited to the life of a haughty, comfortable, reasonably well-off hobbit, a life in which formalities could go for ethics, or etiquette for morality - a life in which written contracts matter and "1/14 share" would be calculated to the penny. In the "adventure" part of his travels, Bilbo's actions begin to have a much more profound impact on both himself and his companions. He realized that he has the power to do or not to do, which he can use to, say, save everyone's lives, or make an independent choice for himself. He has a choice to tell the Dwarves about the Ring, or to keep it a secret. Firstly, as Pitch mentioned above, part of his wanted to look daring and dashing to the Dwarves. They have been underestimating his value quite a lot, which would have increased the innate desire to prove oneself. But also there is the issue of independence. When the Dwares need Bilbo, their attitude is "You signed up for this, this is your quest too now, go do the dirty work". But once that's done, Bilbo is just "the burglar" - it's an "us vs him" scenario. Well, if he can't fully be part of this quest, soul and heart, he might as well become his own individual rather than a tag-along to wipe the dirt with. Independence isn't necessarily a lack of reliance; for Bilbo is just has to mean that his agenda does not necessarily hinge on the Dwarves, and having a secret of his own does precisely that. It gives a purpose to the adventure that is specific to him.

And as he discovers the consequences of his choices and actions, he also does a lot of reevaluating. The foundation and framework of his former life becomes less important to him than things that are above mere formality - like food and cheer... and bravery, and friendship, and selflessness, and many more. And at this point his conscience really wins out against any wandering greed, or cowardice, or comfort-seeking-ness, indecisiveness, selfishness, apathy, what have you.

Yes, had his conscience not won, he would have had a greater range of negative deeds at his disposal. But the change is not so much in his own qualities as it is with the range of application of those qualities, and the range of consequences they have on others.

So I have to agree with Morthoron here - the negative qualities Bilbo displays throughout the book are not born at the spur of the moment, they were always present in him - just controlled differently and pointed elsewhere. Likewise, his positive qualities aren't dropped down from the ceiling; they just lay dormant in him, snoozing away in a comfortable life.


EDIT: Just to point out, at this point in the story Gandalf isn't that well-versed in Ring-lore. I don't have FOTR with me, but from what I recall he made the trip to Gondor's library only after Bilbo returned home to the Shire - perhaps even after Bilbo's 111th birthday. The queer look he gives Bilbo after his glorified tale of his escape from the goblins is very much explicable just by the extravagance of the tale, and suspicions specific to the nature of the Ring are quite unlikely.

Hi Galadriel. Interesting thoughts

The longitudinal analysis, upon review of various entries upstream, was implicit in several of my posts, and possibly some of others. Occasionally I find that one evolves or unearths an ambiguous feature or element in an argument.

I'm going to go find some materials, I think for this one, and also for the 'editorial butchery' argument. I have no -- strong -- alliance to the 'Bilbo grew increasingly - evil' from 'Baseline Hobbit'svillian level' theory.

It's going to be a 'bit-of-a-son-of-an-unmarried-couple' to pin, either way, as elucidation of the position is:

1. Atypical argumentation style (i.e. non-canon, and inferential methodology).
2. It's going to be really difficult getting agreement about 'baseline hobbitish' dissembling tendency.
3. Difficult to locate specific textual features in the Hobbit (they are few, in explicit form and several more in the implicit form). As a 'theory' it's going to be, really, just discussion point.

I will attempt it though. Ungoliant seems to be sleeping atm. Shelob as well, good god! And Unlight to Light Tonite

Kind Regards

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Ungoliant seems to be sleeping atm. Shelob as well, good god! And Unlight to Light Tonite

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I see then, the major means for 'picking holes' would really required knowing what it was that Allen and Unwin originally 'saw' and 'picked holes in' and then also, what major artefacts of Lore (e.g. Dragons, Rings) would have narrative - thematic level only (i.e. not detailed, just the major themes of mythology) - consistency in FA materials.

To the best of my knowledge, A & U didn't see anything of the First Age materials until after The Hobbit had been published and become a success and the question of a sequel came up, and then rejected it as unsuitable for the audience of TH - which is a good thing, for we wouldn't have The Lord of the Rings otherwise.

As for the state and themes of Tolkien's legendarium before and at the time of writing TH, the materials are all published and documented in the volumes of The History of Middle-earth. There were dragons, mostly used as war machines by Morgoth, but there was also already Glaurung (originally called Glórund), devastating the kingdom of Nargothrond and the lives of the the Children of Húrin. There was a lieutenant of Morgoth (long named Thû, later renamed Sauron) who had a thing for vampires and werewplves, a proficient shape-changer and dread interrogator who won a famous song contest with Felagund, but had yet nothing to do with rings of any kind (Eregion and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain only came into the picture during the writing of LotR). The only ring of any notability was the Ring of Doom, the place outside Valmar where the Valar sat in a circle in council or judgment.

The view that Tolkien wrote The Hobbit as a 'dumbed-down' version of his mythology to get it past a publisher doesn't hold in my opinion because the story wasn't originally devised for publication at all. He made it up as a bedtime story for his children, and elements of his mythology like dragons, dwarves, elves and goblins were used as narrative building bricks because they were lying around in his head anyway - readymades, if you like. But I don't think it was originally meant to be a canonic part of the legendarium any more than, say, Mr Bliss or Roverandom. It became so during the writing of its sequel, as more and more connections were drawn between the story of Mr Baggins, his heir and the Ring and the matter of the First and Second Ages. In the history of the legendarium at large, The Hobbit is, I think, best described as a detour on which hitherto uncharted territory was discovered and some older elements were seen in a new light - the Dwarves, for example, were mostly presented as hostile, treacherous creatures in the earlier material, and a character like Gimli would have been unconceivable then).

And I must say I object to the term 'dumbing down' with respect to The Hobbit. Sure, the mythological trappings are shoved far into the background, kinslaying and incest are completely absent, but we are recompensed for that with a detail and fullness of characterisation we don't find in the legends of the First Age. We get to know Bilbo Baggins better than we ever do Túrin or Beren or Fëanor, warts and wrinkles and all. The Hobbit was a huge progress for Tolkien as a writer without which he could never have given us The Lord of the Rings.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

why would anyone need to assign outside sources to Bilbo's behavior in The Hobbit, or, at least, The Hobbit before it was revised?

Mainly contrariness, like I said. My inner companion just handed me a prompt card, it reads *squints* "I may be wrong. Let's do it your way." But let's not be hasty and await Ivriniel's longitudinal analysis first.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...And I must say I object to the term 'dumbing down' with respect to The Hobbit....

Dumbing down was a colloquialism applied to Morthoron's adaptation, in the post prior on the prior page, where she/he adapted an argument and compared creatures in proportions of mythology.

It is a summation of this:

So what does Tolkien do after publishing The Hobbit? In writing a sequel, he magnifies the tale of Bilbo Baggins and the other characters. Gandalf goes from pitching pinecones to defeating a Balrog. Cozy Erebor becomes the decrepit but magnificent Khazad-dum. The dispossessed Bard with the black arrow becomes the dispossessed Aragorn with shards and a lineage that predates the Age. Oh, and a magic ring that grants invisibility becomes the One Ring, the manifestation of all evil, created by an eternal foe, Sauron, who was borrowed from the 1st Age, but now was hiding out as a necromancer in Dol Guldur but really has a far greater keep in Mordor. And Gollum become more than just a riddle-spouting side-character, but one of the prime movers of the new book, held in thrall by the Ring, he destroys it and it destroys him.

So, 'dumbing down' in that context. I object to having the objection objectively objected into an objecti--ungoliant-- at the morgoth's unFinwe-ised Miriel-unlighted. The premise to pin it on Gollumisaions and back-toUnGaladrieling.

Ie, Pitchwife, please don't pin that on me. It's better where it refers to. Morthoron was asserting that the Hobbit was less Lore-lofty, and I say dumbed down, run in reverse. The pre-AMPED UP variation.

PS: I am doing the research atm.

I'm pretty clear: there's some 1927 materials. That's the basic research premise. I'll be back.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

To the best of my knowledge, A & U didn't see anything of the First Age materials until after The Hobbit had been published and become a success and the question of a sequel came up, and then rejected it as unsuitable for the audience of TH - which is a good thing, for we wouldn't have The Lord of the Rings otherwise.

Yes, I believe Professor Tolkien offered The Silmarillion to Allen & Unwin after the success of The Hobbit, not before, when they requested more fiction from him, but they wanted more about Hobbits.

Of course, the narratives which contributed to The Silmarillion, including 'The Fall of Gondolin', were under composition in late 1916/early 1917 and continued over subsequent years. They were not merely a series of 'notes' but rather fleshed-out (if in some cases unfinished) narratives. This is, of course, all detailed in the two volumes of "The Book of Lost Tales" published as the first two volumes of "The History of Middle-earth".

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

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