Bilbo´s treachery

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I can't see how that can be the case.

Well, I'm sorry, but it is.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Do you have citations, because they'd be interesting to look at. Can you post them please.

Everything relevant is in The Return of the Shadow. I will post a couple of things, but looking further is up to you. It is an extensive text.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

He wrote First Age notes well ahead of the Hobbit.

He wrote "Quenta Silmarillion" before The Hobbit, yes. I am not denying this.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Don't buy it.

I'm sorry, but really? "Don't buy it"?!? Your flat refusal to even consider that what I'm saying might be true makes me question the purpose of doing this.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Mr Bad Boi Sauron (Annatar was bit hot, I'd have imagined, and would have roused a bit of Noldor death-lust, I'm sure). I'm sure JRRT would have had Sméagol/Gollum in his fore as he put the Hobbit together in the 30's, some nine or so years after his pouring out of First Age Notes, and only a year before The Lord of the Rings was titled as the sequel....

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

To quote The Return of the Shadow, in Professor Tolkien's original conception of what became The Lord of the Rings, the Ring did not matter at all. There are four drafts presented before Professor Tolkien even begins considering the Ring as more than a possible "motive" for "Bungo" (the character before Frodo) to go looking for Bilbo, and when he does, he is not even sure if it is related to Sauron:

The Ring: whence its origin. Necromancer? Not very dangerous, when used for good purpose. But it exacts its penalty. You must either lose it, or yourself.

[The Return of the Shadow Part I (v)]
Going into more detail would involve quoting huge quantities of The Return of the Shadow. Reading the Histories of Middle-earth is really invaluable for sorting out the order in which Professor Tolkien invented these various elements.

The Treason of Isengard even shows that at one point Professor Tolkien imagined that the Rings of Power (other than Sauron's, admittedly) had been made in Valinor by Fëanor in the First Age:

In those days the Rings of Power were made. It is said that they were fashioned first by Feanor the greatest of all the makers among the Elves of the West, whose skill surpassed that of all folk that are or have been.

The history of the Second Age didn't exist at all at this point, and Professor Tolkien did not yet have a firm idea of what happened. These are all musings which occurred after The Hobbit was initially published, incidentally.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Well, I'm sorry, but it is.

I'm good at conceding a point, Zigur, when there is cause to. I have an ego, like all humans, but it embarrasses me more to fail to yield ground and I find it embarrassing when others don't. I find that it is an adult skill to tolerate some argy-bargy and to enjoy debate. But, I'd like to see you ground your point in some materials, please, especially since you asserted that The Ring doesn't act immediately, and that The Ring was not part of Prof's thinking/notes at Hobbit time.

Please do explain this more, but with materials please.

Everything relevant is in The Return of the Shadow. I will post a couple of things, but looking further is up to you. It is an extensive text/

.

Yes, I know. That's my point, so please let's have a look at what it is I seemed to have missed, that inspired you to cross-post over my comments.

Let's start with a shorter post. They get too long and too many points (of that I am often guilty). Let's take your two assertions as I've summarised them.

[Ivriniel]

I'm going to bed now, and will no doubt, find materials here am. Take your time. Again, it's your two assertions I'm testing, as The Ring doesn't have immediate influence over a bearer, and secondly, that The Ring wasn't conceived as a malevolent artefact in The Hobbit.

Please give consideration to my upstream materials as well. Especially those with dates of publications, and titles:

The Lord of the Rings - the TITLE but ONE YEAR behind the Hobbit's release in the 30's. "Lord".....who - if not Sauron - who did he have in mind?

PS - I wonder if Annatar had sex with the Noldor in the Ost In Edhil? These themes are never discussed and I often wonder why not. Case in point: Maeglin. It's a bit off topic, but I'm curious to hear your comments about this.

Cheers

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

you asserted that The Ring doesn't act immediately

I do not believe I said this and am not debating it. I am merely saying that Professor Tolkien did not think the Ring was evil when he wrote The Hobbit.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Ring was not part of Prof's thinking/notes at Hobbit time.

Please do explain this more, but with materials please.

I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow to show that he only came up with these ideas later. They may have been a short time later, but they were later.

I don't know what else to say. Remarks about being "embarrassed for" me are not appreciated. I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard to prove my point and you seem to have simply ignored them. In these posts you repeatedly claim that I haven't given you evidence when I have!

I also note that you have not provided evidence to support your claim that Professor Tolkien did already have these things in mind, which seems to make it rather moot.

And no I don't think Sauron had some kind of liaison with any of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. I do not perceive "Annatar" as a sexually attractive figure, although I realise many do; personally I believe that his "fairness" was an impression of supreme majesty, wisdom and intellect that he gave those who saw him - perhaps excessively so, hence the mistrust this fostered in Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I do not believe I said this and am not debating it. I am merely saying that Professor Tolkien did not think the Ring was evil when he wrote The Hobbit.

I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow to show that he only came up with these ideas later. They may have been a short time later, but they were later.

I don't know what else to say. Remarks about being "embarrassed for" me are not appreciated. I have given you quotes from The Return of the Shadow and The Treason of Isengard to prove my point and you seem to have simply ignored them. In these posts you repeatedly claim that I haven't given you evidence when I have!

I also note that you have not provided evidence to support your claim that Professor Tolkien did already have these things in mind, which seems to make it rather moot.

And no I don't think Sauron had some kind of liaison with any of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. I do not perceive "Annatar" as a sexually attractive figure, although I realise many do; personally I believe that his "fairness" was an impression of supreme majesty, wisdom and intellect that he gave those who saw him - perhaps excessively so, hence the mistrust this fostered in Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel.

A '...short time later...' will conjoin the disparity in arguments. By 1937/8

And as I pointed out to Galadriel. It's--rubbish--to assert that Bilbo wasn't already lying soon after procuring the ring. He lied about how he got it. Lies -- implicated with the Arkenstone thing as well.