Scarburg Meadhall Discussion Thread

[Thinlómien]

PS. I have absolutely no idea what has happened in Scarburg during my absence so pardon me if this doesn't make sense, but I would even advocate a longer time jump - 3 years, 5 years, even 10 years - that would open up interesting opportunities for character development and aging up the younger characters (even though I do like tiny Cnebba)...

PPS. I guess the character/player list is not up to date? In any case we will have to update it...

[Nogrod]

I was actually also thinking more like a 3 - 5- 10 year jump - like giving it a good kick forward and then seeing who's still around (oops - a teen-Cnebba would be hilarious - or unbearable).

That would both pose a nice challenge to those who have written there already - to adapt to their characters who are older and maybe the overall situation has also changed - but also give new writers more freedom to come up with their characters.

[Thinlómien]

Also if we're doing a longer time jump and introducing new characters, would we again start a new game thread and a new discussion thread?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

PS. I have absolutely no idea what has happened in Scarburg during my absence so pardon me if this doesn't make sense, but I would even advocate a longer time jump - 3 years, 5 years, even 10 years - that would open up interesting opportunities for character development and aging up the younger characters (even though I do like tiny Cnebba)...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I was actually also thinking more like a 3 - 5- 10 year jump - like giving it a good kick forward and then seeing who's still around (oops - a teen-Cnebba would be hilarious - or unbearable).

That would both pose a nice challenge to those who have written there already - to adapt to their characters who are older and maybe the overall situation has also changed - but also give new writers more freedom to come up with their characters.

I think a longer time jump would actually be great. Will give chance to pick up the old characters and put them into a new perspective by making them grown up again a bit, and also it would make it easier for newer players to join in, of course. But of course, that's all open.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also if we're doing a longer time jump and introducing new characters, would we again start a new game thread and a new discussion thread?

Hm. A new thread also for discussion might possibly be easier also for those who want to join in, since then one can also neatly sum up the necessary points in the beginning of it, so that people don't have to search for it in tons of old posts on page 199 of 325...

[Firefoot]

Hmmm. For Leof I'd be fine with a longer jump, less sure about Scyld. I could make it work, I guess, though with where I was at with him when the story dropped off, a few years could make a huge difference. For him I'd probably favor something shorter - months? But if we do go longer I think I'd still favor only a couple years, not something drastic like 10.

I'm also toying around with the idea of bringing Leof's sister into play. Not sure but it's been in the back of my mind ever since I started with him. To echo Legate, I don't want to bite of more than I can chew with more characters than I have time to write for.

[Galadriel55]

It just goes to say how much I've forgotten that for one moment I thought, "who's Athanar?" (oh, how I've missed this emoticon ). Anyone any less major I pretty much don't have recollections of. Heck, I couldn't remember my own characters off the top of my head. I have a lot of reviewing to do.

Thinking about my characters, though, I'd say a 3-5 year leap would be better than a 10 year one. I think 10 is a tad too much. As for character development, Ledwyn is a young widow with a 2 year old son, whose husband died in some working accident or other (can't remember who he was) - or so she says. I think I know where she's going. Oh how young and innocent I was when I created her! I could go all Game of Thrones on her, but I don't think that would be fitting here, though I do have a very appropriate twist in mind. But regardless, that doesn't stop her from being young and single, and she's not the only wench around. That should give this gathering of men something to ponder.

As for the general storyline, I think we need a calamity. There's only so much you write about cooking breakfast. I think the last biggie that happened was the trouble with the minor lords (correct me if I'm wrong - my memory is simply marvelous). But even that wasn't really serious. Not as serious as it can get. We should have something where lives are at stake - a war is probably not realistic in the setting, but a full out rebellion could be pulled off. Or a famine. Or some other natural disaster, if human enemies of that golden age aren't really a danger. Any cataclysm would do. Not right away of course - we'd first need to set the stage of how things look X years from now. What do you think?

[Mithalwen]

Oh well if it moved years I might be able to recycle Elfthain. He was only ten before but it isn't inconceivable that he might be away from home as an adolescent.

[Firefoot]

I guess I don't really understand the push for a large time jump. I've been thinking about it quite a lot the last couple days and I feel like I could do three years. My biggest problem is with Scyld's development (and if I'm honest, the way his relationship was progressing with Rowenna) - that's something that's not going to remain stagnant for an incredibly lengthy amount of time, but I also can't write that development independently since it depends on another character's writer. To get to three years, I'm probably going to write in that he left for a while (and I have an idea to work that in), but five years is a long time. In some ways at least I think Scyld is on his way to being a very different person but I can't just gloss over that and skip to the end without it feeling totally contrived. lmp, thoughts from Rowenna's side? Though maybe I should ask first whether you are also interested in continuing writing Rowenna's character?

I like the general plot points Nogrod outlined, though I think it could easily be compressed to a shorter time frame (if anyone else is with me... if everyone else really wants to jump five years I guess I'm outnumbered).

My thought is, if we're starting up new characters and some new general plotlines anyway, it shouldn't matter to new writers how far along we move the timeline. And for those of you arguing for a longer jump with existing characters, I would be interested in knowing why you want to move them so far forward - do you feel they were a bit stagnant where they were? Then I'd suggest introducing some event in their life that changes or pushes them in new directions - and it doesn't necessarily have to be a long time from now. Though I do understand the desire of those with children characters to grow them up a bit.

I won't belabor my point, but you can consider my vote as

++3 year shift

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also if we're doing a longer time jump and introducing new characters, would we again start a new game thread and a new discussion thread?

A good reboot into the future with a fresh start and thread and such would be good as I won't be doing much back-reading. I'll intro a character based on the year/time period and do my best to stay on top of the tale. I've been pretty much doing collab. writing with my wife Elora of late so will be a bit rusty.

[Nogrod]

I see some people are unhappy with a too long time-jump (ten years) even if I myself would actually prefer that – to make things new enough for everyone. Maybe we should then do something like a 5-year jump?

I mean I’d really like that we previous writers would need to adjust to a new scene and somewhat new characters as well (a middle-aged person would be becoming old, a kid turning into a teenager, a young adult into a responsible adult etc.). But sure we should go as most of the people wish.


What then might have happened between the time the story ends for now and between the restart?

I think everyone who has written to the story should think about their characters – and everyone should share some thoughts on the general backgorund issues.


~*~

A very short synopsis of the second Mead Hall aka. what we have been writing up to now (the first Mead Hall was a different beast altogether – but if someone would like to reanimate her/his character from there, I think there should be no problem with that).


Now if I remember it correctly the establishing of the (our “second”) Mead Hall in Middle Emnet was an idea of King Eomer to bring the Mid Emnet under the rule of law – and showing the local lords they couldn’t oppress the people around their lands as they pleased. And it was also a gift & a task for lord Eodwine. But with lord Eodwine’s illness king Eomer had to appoint a new lord to the newly established (or actually “in the very early stages of being established”) Mead Hall.

That then ended up with a host of problems both inside the Mead Hall (as those loyal to lord Eodwine and those loyal to the new lord Athanar kind of skirmished it out between themselves) and outside it (the local lords standing up against the rule of king Eomer’s rule via the Mead Hall). The most obvious and immediate outer problems were dealt with, at least initially, by lord Athanar’s boldish action, but the inner tensions didn’t go away even if both lords Athanar and Eodwine (who returned to his wife and the mother of his coming child after being healed) tried to cool things down and tried to work together.

There were a lot of plots and sub-plots involved and many character-stories intertwining there which we should remind ourselves of, if and when some of those characters involved do take part in the new edition of the Mead Hall, or we find some of the possible plots so intriguing we wish to let them make a difference in this situation many years on.


~*~

My intial suggestion would be that we let lord Athanar be appointed by king Eomer into a new position somewhere else – and he probably should take his family and (most of) his soldiers with him – now some of them could be left into the Mead Hall if some writers would like to keep them there and we could then come to terms whether they were ordered to stay (as enforcements to lord Eodwine’s men) or were willing (and given leave) to stay, or whatever…

Also, if we wish to have some added interesting characters, we might leave one or both of lord Athanar’s sons there – they were really reckless guys when they were young the last time we wrote about them. It might be interesting to see what kind of men they would turn out when growing little older.

Lord Eodwine should, I think, be the lord and eorl but he’s clearly getting older – which I then think would make Thornden ever more important character in the Mead Hall (he was alredy appointed a seneschal by lord Athanar), if Folwren is ready to take that.

I think myself and Lommy could keep on writing Modtryth, Stigend and Cnebba – as they are a long time household family and basically have nowhere else to go.

If we let lord Athanar go, I might fancy taking another character depending on what kind of characters are needed (maybe one of lord Athanar's sons - or then something completely different?).


Plotwise I think the local lords could be a wealthy supply of problems, like fex. they had acted "decentlyish" as long as Athanar was there (as they had learned for good that he can play it tough as an eorl) but with him gone - and them not knowing Eodwine - they'd form a conspiracy or even rebel openly - whatever we wished.

Or we could catch on one of those many odd plotlines introduced we have mostly forgotten already (we need to check them)... or...


What do you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Does not sound bad to me. I would be certainly too for at least a bit longer time jump, five years is, I think, a nice middle ground if some people don't want to jump too much, but others would prefer a longer jump. I could even do with longer. But depends what is the thing everyone would like to do with their characters.

For myself, the hot irons I have there, i.e. existing characters I could carry on, are all Athanar's soldiers, there is Hilderinc and then the NPC guys, who are sort of fleshed out and I could pick some of them up (such as the young Áforglaed, who could now be a bit more grown-up), they could be left behind on the account of being responsible and useful to Eodwine. Hilderinc was the sort of second-in-command after Athanar's marshal Coenred, so he could be a reasonable choice to be "gifted" to Eodwine. But of course another reasonable thing would be for me to start with somebody completely new. A nice middle ground I've been thinking about could also be e.g. letting Hilderinc stay and, for instance, taking some random peasant from the local area as wife, or somesuch, and then I could have her as a second character. But that's just one possibility, personally I'd maybe prefer even something more original (also the "original" Hilderinc I designed would take a bit longer in settling down), but let's see.

But yes. The idea of e.g. moving Athanar elsewhere and some people remaining behind etc. sounds reasonable. Did you mean, Nogrod, that our potential new storyline would start e.g. just after Athanar has left? As in, the "meanwhile" would be that for the last five (or however many) years, Athanar and Eodwine had been sort of co-ruling the area, with Athanar making sure things work, and after certain period of time, King Eomer saw that things seem to be working fine, and was like "okay, now we can get rid of this unnecessary two-lords rule and seeing that Eodwine can probably take care of things from now on, let's move Athanar somewhere else?" So we might start just after everyone has left? Or would we have it so that the "moving out" happened already several years ago, and the household is just running, and then something problematic might start happening?

In any case, I'm all for some local trouble stirring there. Like G55 said earlier, you can only spend so much time describing how people are eating their breakfast. Although I am not as bloodthirsty, I don't think we need a full-scale bloody rebellion or all-killing plague, but something dramatic, and rather closer to the too dramatic side than to the peaceful side, would not be bad.

[Nogrod]

How the situation has changed and when will be a big decision, and one we need to make together.

Lmp may correct me, but I think the two lords / eorls were very different as personalities and there probably was not anything you'd call love and affection between them. But they didn't hate or despise each other either: they respected each other as senior commanders and capable leaders, and realised well enough that they needed to co-operate for the good of the Mead Hall which clearly was the top priority for both of them. It was more that their disciples and those close to them were hot-headed, easily insulted or over-proud as to try and fight things out...

So the first question is, did they finally reach a peace among the soldiers and other folk belonging to both "households" or has lord Athanar been removed because there was no solution to the tensions? The decision would affect the situation of former Athanar's men / household members quite remarkedly if our writers decided to leave them in the Mead Hall (like Legate's Hilderinc, or Athanar's sons if myself & Lommy decide to leave them).

Another question sure is the one posed by Legate: whether the changes have taken place already some time ago (and things have kind of settled) or do we start writing just when the change happens (Athanar & co. leaves) and see how it goes from there?


I might actually suggest we'd start from a somewhat settled situation to help the new writers blend in - if there are too strong tensions that are based on the previous storyline for the older writers to deal (and have fun) with, it might be harder for the new people to fit in without quite a deep understanding of the previous events.

For the same reason I might propose a somewhat peaceful or honoured exit for Athanar as we probably would do well not leaving too strong tensions there. On top of the above-stated reason of it being possibly frustrating for the new writers if the old ones only dwell in plotlines that stem from the earlier phases of the Mead Hall (which easily happens if we leave some open wounds there), there is also the very real possibility those rifts overtake the writing once again.

I mean one of the problems with the previous "installment" of the Mead Hall was that we seemed to be unable to cut the rivalries down to concentrate on other possible plots.

That doesn't mean there wouldn't, shouldn't or couldn't be any old tensions coming forwards in the new Mead Hall. On the contrary! But I do think we should not make them the main driver of the new storyline - and that would regard us playing them down some considerable amount from where we left the story.


~*~

A few suggestions to ponder then for everyone from where the story stopped...

Lord Eodwine became a father and was happy to father his child while lord Athanar ran the Mead Hall. Or well, maybe Saeryn was actually appointed in some official role as the lady of the Hall (running the everyday life of the Mead Hall with the aid of Eodwine still basically on a "sick leave" recovering to his full strength) while Athanar was the eorl responsible for the official running of the Mead Hall (as the king's court) and commanding the men at arms?

That way we could get things going for a couple of years and see the enmities toning down - maybe lord Athanar was even named the Godfather of the child (alongside Thornden?) as a kind of nice ploy arrived to by Eodwine and Athanar to help ease the tensions between the two groups of people?

One idea could be that there might have been fex. a really hard winter, let's say the second after where we left the story, and some characters, also dear ones, might have even died that winter? I mean what would bring people together better than a common tragedy and common fight for survival?

In general that kind of disaster could serve as a general way of getting rid of characters no one is going to write any more.

Then, when things would look pretty good and peaceful - and lord Eodwine would be back to his full strength after the illness etc. (he could have been suffering with the bad winter also as he wasn't exactly on his prime yet as it befell on them - and that could postpone his full recovery with a year or two?) - king Eomer would have a need for a capable leader somewhere else and calls Athanar to take that position offering the eorlship of Mid Emnet back to Eodwine.

With a disasterous winter behind them it would also be logical for Athanar to be told to leave some of his men to serve under Eodwine... So fex. Hilderinc (and possible others like him) would not be there exactly on his/their own willing but the relations between him (them) and Eodwine's men would be pretty good?

Let's then add a year or two for things to settle down... and we have a five to six year jump in our hands - and new adventures to meet.


What say you?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Also, if we wish to have some added interesting characters, we might leave one or both of lord Athanar’s sons there – they were really reckless guys when they were young the last time we wrote about them. It might be interesting to see what kind of men they would turn out when growing little older.

Lord Eodwine should, I think, be the lord and eorl but he’s clearly getting older – which I then think would make Thornden ever more important character in the Mead Hall (he was alredy appointed a seneschal by lord Athanar), if Folwren is ready to take that.

That combination would be interesting to develop, since all of a sudden W&W (or at least the elder of the two) would lose his status as the "son and heir" of the eorl, seeing as Athanar is no longer eorl - and maybe they would actually start behaving like actual men...eventually?

And Athanar leaving would create the same situation as Athanar coming, but in reverse, and potentially stir old grudges, but this time I think the grudges would be mild and brief, because 1) Athanar leaves in honour at the request of King Eomer to see to another challenging task, he's not just dismissed, 2) Athanar's men saw Eodwine in action and know he's a worthy man, 3) the two households have had time to begin respecting each other and cooperating, and they are above open quarrels for the most part, and 4) bringing up the old tensions is like chewing cud - it's boring to rehash the same story.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Plotwise I think the local lords could be a wealthy supply of problems, like fex. they had acted "decentlyish" as long as Athanar was there (as they had learned for good that he can play it tough as an eorl) but with him gone - and them not knowing Eodwine - they'd form a conspiracy or even rebel openly - whatever we wished.

I vote for open rebellion. Maybe even a justified rebellion - overall wrong, but not without cause. Maybe some of the lords would feel rightfully wronged by the eorl(s) or by their men, or there is some misunderstanding that ends in tragedy. That way they aren't just jerks either, and they may have the support of some of their people (otherwise the rebellion wouldn't be sustained unless they hired brigands or something). Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

In any case, I'm all for some local trouble stirring there. Like G55 said earlier, you can only spend so much time describing how people are eating their breakfast. Although I am not as bloodthirsty, I don't think we need a full-scale bloody rebellion or all-killing plague, but something dramatic, and rather closer to the too dramatic side than to the peaceful side, would not be bad.

An all-killing plague! That's perfect!!! <3 No, seriously - it's plausible within the setting, it puts pressure on individuals and on the entire Meadhall alike, and it creates tension when developing the story. A plague a plague a plague! Delicious!

Ok, sorry, I suppose I am more bloodthirsty than most of you here, so I won't push on with it, but I do think that an event like that could be kept in mind to be used in the future.

Another alternative drama could be the disappearance of some man/men. Just plain old disappearance. No one knows what happened or where they went. We may or may not know what happened or where they went. And that could lead to search parties and unwanted discoveries of... I dunno. Things.

I've reread the last 3-4 pages of the thread, and there are a few notable subplots/details that I think deserve attention. Firstly, there is stuff brewing between Ginna and Harreld. Are they now happily married? What did her father say? Then there is some very different stuff brewing between Rowenna and Scyld. That probably needs resolution, or at least continuation (re: Firefoot: to avoid the too-rapid transformation, Scyld could have been sent away or gone away to do some task for a significant amount of time. Say, a group of Scarburg men was dispatched to aid the reconstruction of a village after the whole thing birned down in a harsh fire during a very dry summer, and due to complications the project lengthened. The whole thing could be described briefly in passing, but Scyld's character development would sort of be put on pause, or perhaps he could reflect on it in a flashback). Then there is the dead body, which Rowenna and Scyld (well mostly Rowenna) decided to investigate. I can't see how this plot line can be suddenly reopened again after several years. Either we drop it or we flashback-narrate it. Finally, Athanar was bothered about Saeryn's parade of her condition and her martyr-like show/attitude, and he considered ordering her to stop working so much but was loathe to give her commands in her own house. Now that Eodwine is here, though, Athanar could do the thing discreetly with his help, and Ledwyn's coming would have been an argument in his favour, so my guess is that the three of them would convince Saeryn to lay down her duties for a while. She would also probably get a few months of "maternity leave". I don't think she would stay away from her position as the Lady of the hall for very long, but it would be a few months at least. How would people react to her coming back? How would she feel if in her absence as the person in control things started going differently somehow?

So there. I agree with Firefoor - I think that we don't need a too long jump to get out of stagnation. But then again, some characters are hotter coals than others - I can see how the Harreld, Ginna, Rowenna, Saeryn, Scyld, and the children would develop much faster than, say, Hilderinc or Eodwine, who are in a way already established and slow to change, and therefore would benefit from a shorter jump, while on the contrary someone like Hilderinc would benefit from a longer jump... Oh the indecisiveness...