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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Armenelos, Númenor
Posts: 205
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Apparently the use of exaggeration makes my points completely invalid.
I think I was quite clear that I was exaggerating. I never said that I didn't enjoy BoLT, rather that I was slightly frustrated at one point. It's like marriage. Anyway, this is basically just getting off topic and stupid. Abort this now meaningless discussion. Formendacil, in the Silmarillion, it is stated multiple times that Melkor only feared Tulkas, for his physical strength was unmatched. I think Mandos was cut from the podium because of the similarities between him and Melkor. Melkor struck fear and doom into the hearts of many, so why would he fear one who did the same thing? I believe the Silmarillion removed reference to solely Mandos and Tulkas being sent to seek out Melkor, and just had the whole crew go instead. Manwe came to his door and asked to come in, and Melkor allowed them, but was not pleased with Tulkas' presence. Nothing was mentioned of Mandos, and so he was basically removed from the event, while still being present. |
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#2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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To continue with the main subject of this thread, I note particularly the discussion of the Valar.
We have Tolkien describing the actual arrival of the Valar and their people in the world, whereas in the published Silmarillion in the chapter “Of the Beginning of Days” this is just assumed to have occurred in a distant time, perhaps because Tolkien wished later to imagine a longer length of time during which the Earth existed. The Valar may have arrived at different times, but we are only specifically told that Tulkas came late, seemingly the last of the Valar to come, and was sufficient to supply the strength and power which drove Melkor from Middle-earth. But in this early account Tulkas is merely described among the others who have newly arrived and there is no early war between the Valar and Melko(r) before the destruction of the two lamps. The Valar are mostly the same named in Tolkien’s later list of the Valar and Maiar with no distinction made between them here. Vaire is missing, though her name is applied to another, Eriol’s hostess, who is not much like the later Valier. Mandos’ wife is Fui Nienna who later accounts make instead to be the sister of Mandos and Lórien. Estë, the wife of Lórien, is not mentioned at all in the Book of Lost Tales. Nessa, the wife of Tulkas and brother to Oromë, is also not mentioned now, perhaps missed by a slip of Tolkien since she will become important in details at the end of this chapter and later. Four more Valar are named in this chapter and also later in the book: the fierce brother-and-sister war deities Makar and Meássë; the youngest of the great Valar, Ómar, a singer and a linguist, later identified as the twin brother of Salmar; and Nornorë, the herald of the gods. None of these personages reappear outside the Book of Lost Tales. Fiönwë and Erinti, son and daughter of Manwë and Varda, are not mentioned in this chapter, though both have been mentioned earlier on page 58, and both will also be mentioned later. By the published Silmarillion, Fiönwë will have become Ëonwë, herald of Manwë, and Eriniti will have become Ilmarë the handmaid of Varda. Eriniti is listed on page 251 with reference to vanished tales where it appears she was at one time the sister of “Noldorin and Amillo”, that is sister of Salmar and Ómar. The maiden Nielíqui is only mentioned once at the end of this chapter on page 72 and is only later identified as the daughter of Oromë and Vána. Telimehtar in later chapters is to be named as the son of Tulkas and Nessa. Later still more beings appear in connection with the Sun and Moon. There is Urwen(di), the sun-maiden, who in the published Silmarillion becomes Árien. There is also Tilion who is perhaps the same as Silimo who long tended the silver tree. However, unlike the published Silmarillion where Tilion becomes steersman of the moon, in this account the moon is governed by a different being named Iinsor; and in the moon is yet another wight, Uolë Kúvion, by some named the Old Man of the Moon. These are more likely to be only people of some of the Valar rather than Valar themselves. The same may be true of some others mentioned because Tolkien, in this state in his writing, makes no firm distinction between classes of supernatural beings, though he probably made distinctions which he did not write down here. Melian the Maia of the published Silmarillion is here definitely not a Vala but is called a sprite or a fay. Tolkien gives many names to the peoples of the Valar and there are many different sorts. Manwë and Varda are accompanied by “the Mánir and the Súruli, the sylphs of the airs and of the winds.” Yavanna is accompanied by “the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns”. And so it goes for other Valar. This gives a greater zest to Tolkien’s world than does the later version, or so I think. I particularly like the Book of Lost Tales account of the first coming of Melko to earth: Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them, having rushed headlong flaming through the airs in the impetuosity of his speed, and there was a tumult of the sea where he had dived and the mountains above him spouted flames and the earth gaped and rocked; and Manwë beholding this was wroth. Last edited by jallanite; 11-11-2014 at 08:43 PM. |
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#3 | |
Dead Serious
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Not so much discussion this past week--if the comparison to Hesiod's Theogony holds, that doesn't surprise me. The list of the gods is important, but not always exciting...
I am a micron shy of being absolutely certain here, but it definitely seems to me that Christopher Tolkien has abridged the text at the start of the Link here, picking up after some recap with "And a marvel of wizardry liveth...". And unless I absolutely missed it somewhere, CT does not explain why he's done it. I assume it's because the text rambles or isn't up to his father's usual standards or SOMETHING. I'm going with the theory that everything it contains will be repeated later in the same Link, which is rather long. It's an odd lacuna, regardless, given the thoroughness with which CT usually presents new texts. In later volumes, it is true, he will often omit passages or texts that are substantially the same as later or earlier versions printed elsewhere, but there's no other. In the midst of this redacted passage, Eriol hears the music of Tinfang Warble, a character I really don't know how to introduce other than to say "he's the Book of Lost Tales' closest parallel to Tom Bombadil." It's not a perfect parallel, obviously. Tinfang Warble is not an intentional enigma, though the way Vairë describes him at first does not seem that far removed from some of theories out there about Tom: Quote:
Tinfang Warble fascinates me because he is emblematic to me of the differences between the BoLT and the later legendarium. From his name to his improbable ability to come and go between the Lonely Isle and the Great Lands to his eerie, "fairy" quality, he is nearly impossible to imagine in the later legendarium. But that's where he reminds me of Tom Bombadil--because if you read the Silmarillion and then told me that a singing genius loci in yellow boots would make a major, three chapter contribution to the tale of the War of the Ring, it'd be equally hard to imagine. Anyway, Tinfang's music leads to Eriol's desire to satiate the longing that music brings, by drinking limpë, and for this he has go into Kortirion and get the lady's permission. The queen is a descendant of Ingil son of Inwë (making the Royal House of the first company of the Eldar considerably larger than it will later become), and this relation to In(g)wë is not the most important way she has parallels to the later character of Galadriel (Galadriel's father, Finarfin, was the son of Indis, a Vanya of Ingwë's family--the exact relationship is not one Tolkien expressed consistently--and the source of her golden hair.) Like Galadriel, Meril is held in deep reverence by her people and her role in the story is to probe the hearts and desires of the protagonists. In short, Meril tells Eriol that he can never become an elf and that he doesn't even know what he's asking without knowing the history of the Elves. And thus we get another story (though in a potential revision, Tolkien was going to have Eriol return to the Cottage of Lost Play empty-handed and have Rúmil tell the story instead of Meril-i-Turinqui). In the process, we've learned a lot about limpë and its effects. Comments? "Melko's Chains" has the same main plot elements as the later story in the Silmarillion: the Valar decide something must be done about Melko(r), they go to war, and bring him back from Utumn(o/a) in chains--but with one major difference. In the Silmarillion, this campaign is done completely out of consideration for the Elves; in the Book of Lost Tales, the Elves aren't even mentioned in connection with the matter until Melko is being judged, when Palúrien's counsel runs, "Take heed, O Valar, that both Elves and Men be not devoid of all solace whenso the times come for them to find the Earth." This is a major difference in motivation and plotting, but it seems like an almost trivial difference to me, compared with the drastic stylistic differences between the earlier and later versions. Some notes I made as I was reading: 1. "But Meril said, 'friendship is possible, maybe, but kinship not so.'" It's worth noting, in the Lost Tales, that Beren is an Elf and there's no suggestion that Tuor would share Idril's fate. The changes-of-fate Lúthien and Tuor undergo is a product of the later legendarium. 2. " 'Nay,' said she, 'on a day of autumn will come the winds and a driven gull, maybe, will wail overhead, and lo! you will be filled with desire, remembering the black coasts of your home.' " Ironically, since Meril is trying to argue Eriol away from tying himself to the fate of the Elves, this longing of his Mannish heritage as a son of Eárendel sounds a lot like the doom of Eldar that Legolas suffers in The Lord of the Rings. 3. To continue with one of my points from last chapter, Oromë's participation in the creation of the first forests with his mother, a participation he lacks in the later legendarium, sheds light on the later tales nonetheless--we are told, after all, that one of his names is "Tauron"--lord of the forests. It makes even more sense in this context, where the first hunter is the son of the mother of the forests. 4. "Full of evil and unwholesome were they; luring and restlessness and horror they brought, turning the dark into an ill and fearful thing, which it was not before." This is one of Tolkien's favourite themes with the Elves, right down to Midsummer Eve in Minas Tirith after the War of the Ring. 5. "Tilkal." It's improbable name aside, its existence puts mithril into a tradition of invented metals. Also, the footnote calls ilsa and laurë the "magic names" of gold and silver. I don't know about "magic," but I'm reminded of "argent" and "or" as heraldic names of the same. 6. Telimektar son of Tulkas gets his first mention. 7. Mandos and Lórien riding together on the same chariot, in addition to being a more evocative image than the later text provides, is another reminder they are brethren. 8. Aulë and his long-handled war-hammer. Shades of mjölnir, anyone? (He's really more of a Hephaestion/Vulcan, but still...) 9. "In sooth Manwë hoped even to end for peace and amity." Is Manwë to be considered super-naïve or is he a paragon of goodness? 10. "yet the shellfish and oysters no-one of the Valar or of Elves knows whence they are, for they gaped in the silent waters or ever Melko lunged therein from on high, and pearls there were before the Eldar thought or dreamed of any gem." Forget Tinfang Warble! Here's the real parallel to Tom Bombadil. Is Bombadil an oyster? There are two poems in the Commentary, both included for their connection to Tinfang Warble. The first, called "Tinfang Warble," reached its centenary this year (so you can drink to that if you're lacking in Tolkien toasts) and I'd be lying if I said that it didn't remind me of "tra-la-la-lally." "Over the Hills and Far Away" is, to my mind, much the better of the two. Both were still around in 1927--well past the Lost Tales era and into the beginning of the Silmarillion tradition (though not necessarily connected with it--but a reminder nonetheless that the Silm began and essentially remained an annalistic compendium of the stories in the BoLT). That was the year "Tinfang Warble" saw publication and "Over the Hills and Far Away" was rewritten. Finally, CT admits he's taken advantage of an interjection by Eriol and reminder of him and Meril-i-Turinqui to separate "Melko's Chains" from the following chapter. Perhaps moreso than the foregoing chapters, we have an artificial division here, one that seems all the more natural given the division of this same section of the Silmarillion into multiple chapters.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 479
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Tinfang Warble also has a vague origin, being either, in a crossed-out passage, the son of the Elfin King Tinwelint by the twilight spirit Wendelin and brother to Lúthen Tinúviel or son of an unidentified Gnome or Shoreland Piper by an unidentified fay who was one of the followers of Palúrien.
The metal tilkal created by Aulë is said by Tolkien to be an amalgam of six metals: copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold. Traditionally there were seven metals to match the seven planets and seven days of the week, but when the metal electrum was recognized as a alloy of gold and silver, after the first centuries, electrum ceased to be considered a planetary metal. The planet Jupiter was then associated with tin and the planet Mercury, which had previously been associated with tin, was now associated instead with the metal mercury. Tolkien, limiting his metals to six, avoids including both the amalgam of electrum and the new addition of mercury. The war against Melko is somewhat disappointing. First, the male Valar and their male children take part, but not the female Valar; not even the war goddess Méassë, so far as is told. And there is not really a war. Instead Melko is just tricked into becoming a prisoner. In The Lord of the Rings Faramir will later say: But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo.In the published Silmarillion Melkor is defeated only after many untold battles and great devastation of the environment, and is defeated in a fair single combat against Tulkas, one on one. Yet Tolkien expresses a dislike of such punishment in his essay “On Fairy Stories”. Tolkien writes: Yet it is not clear that ‘fair fight’ is less cruel than ‘fair judgement’; or that piercing a dwarf with a sword is more just than the execution of wicked kings and evil stepmothers – which Lang abjures.On page 108 of the Book of Lost Tales, Part One, Christopher Tolkien states that the earliest version of his father’s poem on Tinfang Warble, Over Old Hills and Far Away, has a subtitle in Old English with the same meaning: Ʒeond fyrne beorgas 7 heonan feor. The letters Ʒ and 7 are here somewhat rough, seemingly written by hand, rather than being from an italic font like the other letters. Possibly they did not have these characters in their fonts. The letter 7 represents a capital version of the Latin word et ‘and’ in the shorthand writing system created by Cicero’s scribe Marcus Tullius Tiro. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes . The lowercase symbol ⁊ is available in Unicode as symbol U+204A, but its rarer use as a non-standard uppercase symbol is not, and so the Arabic number 7 may be used in Unicode as a substitute when uppercase is desired. These symbols were commonly used in the Old English language approximately between the years 450 and 1150. The normal lowercase symbol ⁊ is still used in Irish and in Scots Gaelic. See https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2014...alway-ireland/ . In Old English the letter G/g is written in what is called insular form as ᵹ, but is normally produced as a normal G/g in current style in printed editions of Old English text. The letter G/g had four distinct pronunciations in Old English: Hard g as in get [ɡɛt]Usually these pronunciations are distinguished in modern spelling of Old English by using the dotted form Ġ/ġ for the latter two sounds. More rarely the Middle English letter yogh is used instead. Yogh is in origin derived from the English insular G/g written as ᵹ. Tolkien uses a capital yogh as the first letter in this subtitle. Yogh is printed as Ȝ/ȝ or as Ʒ/ʒ, the latter form being the more modern use. But this form is also used in the International Phonetic Alphabet for the letter ezh, as in measure [mɛʒuɹ]. Unicode accordingly now distinguishes ezh, which is always printed as Ʒ/ʒ, from yogh which may be printed either as Ȝ/ȝ or as Ʒ/ʒ, but in most computer fonts appears as the distinct form Ȝ/ȝ. See the article http://www.evertype.com/standards/wynnyogh/ezhyogh.html , one of many, many articles by the amazing Michael Everson. This article led to Unicode adding yogh as a letter in Unicode version 3.0.0 in September 1999 to be differentiated from IPA ezh. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Everson . Michael Everson is since 2012 also publisher of the Irish translation of An Hobad (The Hobbit). See http://www.evertype.com/books/hobad.html . Last edited by jallanite; 11-24-2014 at 08:31 PM. |
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